DryMotorBoatin

I don't mean to reopen this can of worms but to defend TSA crews, we flew airplanes that were safe to our knowledge. We use log cans and pre-flight inspections to determine that our planes our safe. We don't use tool boxes. As far as our mx goes, I will not defend their practices right or wrong. End of story.

Regarding the hiring process, I agree as well with what has been said. In theory the selection process should be revamped but to show how it's difficult, we had several 135 Caravan guys wash out simply because they couldn't fly +/- 1000 feet of altitude. No way could have HR known that. You can't look at a resume and determine professionalism or airmanship. My sim partner got hired with around 500tt and was probaly one of the better pilots of the class. I had twice his time but got through training on my good looks. I also whole heartedly agree with training departments trying to do it as cheap as possible That was definitely true but I would imagine that if I asked the people who made it through, they would say they found their level of training sufficient to fly.

ehe2

I have you know those eagle planes were in BAD shape when we got them. They were in Worse shape when we recieved them than how we returned them. Yes we have our issues, but come on!

Flyby1206

Ill bet the FAA creates a new FAR stating a 121 pilot must calculate his own duty time when commuting to work and any violations rest completely on the pilot.

Besides that how about 14hr duty day no extensions. 10hr min overnight. Someone on another thread brought up flying more than 8hrs a day if it was limited to 2-3 legs up to maybe 10hrs flight time/12hrs duty time total. Any thoughts on that?

Sniper

I'd rather do that approach to JFK than on my 7th leg an NDB to a closed field @ night after 15 hours of duty.

Europe ties their flight/duty to legs (I think), and the FAA should too.

Agreed. 10 hours sounds good for min rest, no reduced rest. Also defining "transportation that is local in nature" so that the layover hotel isn't 40 minutes away, after waiting 20 minutes on the curb for the van.

Safety should be the only factor here, not QOL considerations. If this means safer skies and more time away from home, than so be it. It's just like CAL ALPA opposing the ULH rules, the ones that DAL ALPA helped develop. I asked then, and I'll ask now: what is the safety argument the CAL ALPA is using here (one that puts them against every other pilot group, who opposes CAL ALPA's position)?

I'd propose:

• max scheduled 12 hour duty day, extendable to 14 max hours for IROPS.
• 10 hours min rest, no reducing
• 10 hours max flight time per duty period, reduced 1 hour for each leg. Ie:
  1 leg = max 10 hours flight time
  2 legs = 9 hours
  3 legs = 8 hours
  etc.
• All flights must be operated FAR 121 for the purposes of flight and duty time: no part 91 repos, nor FAR 135 crap (1200 hours, 120 hours/month).
• 1 in 7 redefined as a "calendar day", not a rolling 24 hour period

Most of these benefit regionals most, but that's where the need is greatest.

flynavyj

You do the best with what you've got. Hopefully you're not trying to say that the airplanes or crews were unsafe, as that isn't the case. The crews at TSA have the willingness and experience to refuse or write up an airplane, day after day, until it's fixed, and if not, ferry the piece of junk home. TSA is also flying one of the oldest fleets of embrear jets in the country, which undoubtably does have a relation to the number and type of write ups the airline experiences. If you wish to question the experience, and throw out the 250 hr pilots we hired, remember the number of furloughs in relationship to the size of the airline...you'll be hard pressed to find many current pilots at TSA w/o an ATP and EMB-145 PIC type...

exwaterski

Okay as to the training process at TSA I have first hand knowledge having been through that meat grinder myself and I can tell you that should not be the model. I know it's tempting to beat your chest for being one of the lucky ones who made it through but I know plenty from my class that failed out who didn't deserve it. As for the legend of the 400 hour guys who do great in training and the 1500 hour guys who barely make it well here is the dirty little secret about that.. most of those 400 hours wonders were hired from bridge programs like Jet University. It's literally like going through training TWICE. But the rub is once they actually get out on the line they are very weak and can take quite a while to catch up while the higher time guy who didn't have the benefit of a bridge course does just fine. There is just no substitute for experience whether it be towing banners or flight instructing or freight. Simply being able to pass the test does not make you a competent well rounded pilot. I stumbled on to Jet U's website once I was stunned to see over half of my recent new hire class from TSA in the recent grad photos. I'm not knocking those guys I'm just saying we need to tell the whole story.

On the other hand I will admit RAH training was maybe a bit too coddling and spoon fed there needs to be a happy medium. 95% pass rates means somebody isn't doing their job while the same can be said for 30% pass rates.

boilerpilot

While this will benefit the regionals the most, keep in mind that it WILL benefit the majors too. ALPA, SWAPA, USAPA, APA, ETC won't have to expend valuable negotiating capital just to keep rest and work rules simply at the livable level, because they're already there. All negotiating capital can be used for improving extras like pay, soft money, benefits, and the like, rather than the current system where you have to fight just to keep humane working conditions at your respective majors.

SrfNFly227

Well that's my point though. If by chance our max duty day was changed to 12 hours or if our min rest actually went to 10 hours, there is no way that the lines would be built the same way they are now. That 28 hour 4 day that everyone loves right now would more than likely become a 22-24 hour line. Take 4-6 hours away from each of 3 trips and now the pilot doesn't meet guarantee. Now you are picking up another trip on what used to be your days off to make up the difference in hours.

DryMotorBoatin

I agree with exwaterski most definitely. JetU is kind of like having a cheat sheet. It may help you in the training but not the line. And i definitely agree with you when you say TSA training should not be the model My class had 4 ground school instructors in the first 3 weeks. No one had a clue what the others had or had not covered. I knew plenty who washed out and didn't deserve it. A few were due to DC and his buddy DC. There is no perfect solution to this training debacle accross the airlines. More sim time? too expensive. More experienced pilots? good luck. I don't know what to suggest. But I will go on record saying that having worked for TSA and knowing first hand the professionalism of the crews, it is incredibly offensive that a few chickensh-ts over at Eagle want to fire off their mouths about our crews for the airplanes we flew. Our pilots are as skilled and professional as any airline there is. If you want to blame our poor maintenance on pilots then to paraphase from the Jim Rome Show, "you got a big dump in yours pants." Many many waterskiers put their families on those airplanes and for people to say that we are knowingly flying unsafe airplanes is absolute garbage.

av8sean

Those 28 hour lines at Pinnacle are built at the expense of the junior guys, who get stuck with 2 days worth 8 hours stuck on the back of a 4-day worth 16 hours. If they rebuild all the lines to 4 days worth 20-25 hours, I'd actually be happy with that.