SkyWest Ends its Midwest Agreement
06-09-2009, 04:40 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SkyWest Capt.
Posts: 2,963
FlyinPiker, you can only take so much when you're working with 2% margins and Mainline's constantly pounding for concessions. Those who were once industry leaders got those rates when they where operating with 10+% margins. Times have changed and unlike mainline where they have more control over revenue and can attempt to pass the hike on to customers, we can not and mainline will not.
It's a crappy reality of what Mainline has forced this industry into, one whipsaw at a time. It's one of the main causes of our industry's downward spiral (the entire industry, not just Mainline or the Regionals). We can't stop it seeing we aren't running the show but we can stand up and made Joe public aware with the hopes that pressure from the bottom can force a change at the top. Reality bites.
Sorry for the typo's. I'm on my Iphone at LAX on a 2.5 hour sit.
It's a crappy reality of what Mainline has forced this industry into, one whipsaw at a time. It's one of the main causes of our industry's downward spiral (the entire industry, not just Mainline or the Regionals). We can't stop it seeing we aren't running the show but we can stand up and made Joe public aware with the hopes that pressure from the bottom can force a change at the top. Reality bites.
Sorry for the typo's. I'm on my Iphone at LAX on a 2.5 hour sit.
Last edited by JetJock16; 06-09-2009 at 04:52 PM.
06-09-2009, 05:06 PM
#72
Time to make the donuts!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: B737 FO
Posts: 303
Wow...really? Luckily I know a few guys higher up on the list over there that think different.
You guys are one of the few companies out there that seems to still be a class act and pay decent wages. It's time to stop looking at the other guys playbooks, grow a pair and not be afraid to take the lead.
The only reason your payscales are what they are is because of the blood/sweat of hard fought contract's such as Comair's and Air Wisconsin (pre 9/11-concessions of course). The old "we'll have want they are having plus 1% if you want to keep us non-union".
Those days are gone and while the trailblazers have had to take cuts you guys are lucky enough to still be sitting there with untouched payrates.
No one's around to piggyback off of anymore.
You guys have been kicking some serious a.ss for the last 10 years from where I've been sitting.
I don't think you should be comparing rates with any other company's than your own. You guys deserve it.
I'm not familiar with how your payrates work but I hope you meant the base rate on the CRJ700/900 verses the 200.
70pax, crew of 4, mountainous terrian/crap wx...200 payscale? No way. They want these planes more than you do. Don't buy into the bullsh*t that a $2-$3/hr difference will keep these planes on/off the property.
Rant over...good luck!
You guys are one of the few companies out there that seems to still be a class act and pay decent wages. It's time to stop looking at the other guys playbooks, grow a pair and not be afraid to take the lead.
The only reason your payscales are what they are is because of the blood/sweat of hard fought contract's such as Comair's and Air Wisconsin (pre 9/11-concessions of course). The old "we'll have want they are having plus 1% if you want to keep us non-union".
Those days are gone and while the trailblazers have had to take cuts you guys are lucky enough to still be sitting there with untouched payrates.
No one's around to piggyback off of anymore.
You guys have been kicking some serious a.ss for the last 10 years from where I've been sitting.
I don't think you should be comparing rates with any other company's than your own. You guys deserve it.
I'm not familiar with how your payrates work but I hope you meant the base rate on the CRJ700/900 verses the 200.
70pax, crew of 4, mountainous terrian/crap wx...200 payscale? No way. They want these planes more than you do. Don't buy into the bullsh*t that a $2-$3/hr difference will keep these planes on/off the property.
Rant over...good luck!
Those industry-leading payscales that were hard fought in the past don't lead to success in the future. You think we've been kickin' tail for the last 10 years? It sure wasn't from getting Horizon wages...or Comair wages...or Air Wisconsin wages.
You see sir, it's a fine balance between what's fair, practical, and possible. CRJ200 base rate is all three in my opinion. Higher margins for United and SkyWest, increased opportunity for the SkyWest pilots and, most importantly, sustainability.
06-09-2009, 05:18 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 309
I understand what your saying, but with that attitude don't expect to see your payscales or work rules go anywhere but further into the toilet.
Don't count on Joe Public doing sh*t for you. Public spot light comes and goes and in the end very little changes.
I spent 8 years at the regionals. Management has never been in the habit of just dishing out money. Nothing has changed. They will do or say anything to keep from paying you even a .50 cent difference. Why not? It's money in their pocket.
Think of all the expenses that go into running an airline and tell me that end the end $2/hr would cause a company to pass on a deal.
Mangement bonuses, employee bonus checks, all that can stay...but since these guys didn't cave on $2/hr we just can't afford to do it. There's just no where else to cut to make this work. Bull!
They know better than to strike a deal based on labor being a fixed cost that won't vary over time.
They are not getting these airplanes for you, they are getting them for the business.
I love how they've somehow brainwashed us into thinking "everything is always riding on us".
If labor was a "deal breaker" there's no way you would have ever gotten the Midwest Contract to begin with.
Don't count on Joe Public doing sh*t for you. Public spot light comes and goes and in the end very little changes.
I spent 8 years at the regionals. Management has never been in the habit of just dishing out money. Nothing has changed. They will do or say anything to keep from paying you even a .50 cent difference. Why not? It's money in their pocket.
Think of all the expenses that go into running an airline and tell me that end the end $2/hr would cause a company to pass on a deal.
Mangement bonuses, employee bonus checks, all that can stay...but since these guys didn't cave on $2/hr we just can't afford to do it. There's just no where else to cut to make this work. Bull!
They know better than to strike a deal based on labor being a fixed cost that won't vary over time.
They are not getting these airplanes for you, they are getting them for the business.
I love how they've somehow brainwashed us into thinking "everything is always riding on us".
If labor was a "deal breaker" there's no way you would have ever gotten the Midwest Contract to begin with.
06-09-2009, 05:22 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SkyWest Capt.
Posts: 2,963
Thanks for your thoughts, but it's a pretty myopic viewpoint.
Those industry-leading payscales that were hard fought in the past don't lead to success in the future. You think we've been kickin' tail for the last 10 years? It sure wasn't from getting Horizon wages...or Comair wages...or Air Wisconsin wages.
You see sir, it's a fine balance between what's fair, practical, and possible. CRJ200 base rate is all three in my opinion. Higher margins for United and SkyWest, increased opportunity for the SkyWest pilots and, most importantly, sustainability.
Those industry-leading payscales that were hard fought in the past don't lead to success in the future. You think we've been kickin' tail for the last 10 years? It sure wasn't from getting Horizon wages...or Comair wages...or Air Wisconsin wages.
You see sir, it's a fine balance between what's fair, practical, and possible. CRJ200 base rate is all three in my opinion. Higher margins for United and SkyWest, increased opportunity for the SkyWest pilots and, most importantly, sustainability.
Many forget that we are pawns being played against each other in this chess match between airlines & the bottom line. If we don't keep the big picture in mind then we are doomed to fail.
Last edited by JetJock16; 06-09-2009 at 05:49 PM.
06-09-2009, 05:26 PM
#75
Moderator
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,964
UAL has been shopping those Qs out of DEN/LAX for a while now. They have been in talks with Colgan for quite some time as well. Unfortunately it will probably go to the lowest bidder which will be Colgan im sure who already has order positions for 30 more airframes not counting the CAL 15 with 15 more options.
The one thing that may be worthwhile is that Colgan will begin contract talks this fall so if that flying were to come our way we would be with any luck on our way to pay and work rules. If not....I hope Skywest takes it, gets the rates and runs with it. I should actually say, gets the rates, gets it and then runs with it.
The one thing that may be worthwhile is that Colgan will begin contract talks this fall so if that flying were to come our way we would be with any luck on our way to pay and work rules. If not....I hope Skywest takes it, gets the rates and runs with it. I should actually say, gets the rates, gets it and then runs with it.
06-09-2009, 05:31 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 309
Thanks for your thoughts, but it's a pretty myopic viewpoint.
Those industry-leading payscales that were hard fought in the past don't lead to success in the future. You think we've been kickin' tail for the last 10 years? It sure wasn't from getting Horizon wages...or Comair wages...or Air Wisconsin wages.
Those industry-leading payscales that were hard fought in the past don't lead to success in the future. You think we've been kickin' tail for the last 10 years? It sure wasn't from getting Horizon wages...or Comair wages...or Air Wisconsin wages.
Labor does not make or break deals. A combination of factors yes, one of the factors, yes....the only factor....no.
I guess I hope you get more than you are expecting then.
06-09-2009, 05:33 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 955
You're right; it wouldn't work. That's my bad.
But I'm sure you understood my point: whatever the rate turns out to be (IF it comes to pass), it will not likely be industry leading.
But I'm sure you understood my point: whatever the rate turns out to be (IF it comes to pass), it will not likely be industry leading.
Last edited by waflyboy; 06-10-2009 at 05:20 AM.
06-09-2009, 05:47 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 309
FlyinPiker, you can only take so much when you're working with 2% margins and Mainline's constantly pounding for concessions. Those who were once industry leaders got those rates when they where operating with 10+% margins. Times have changed and unlike mainline where they have more control over revenue and can attempt to pass the hike on to customers, we can not and mainline will not.
6 years ago when UAL was in bankruptcy all the regionals bidding on ex Air Wis/ACA flying were also being faced with the 2% margins.
Your company was still able to come up with a sweet enough deal to secure a deal.
They even sold your pilot group on the nonsense that they would not be able to afford to do the UAL flying unless 70 seaters were flown at 50 seat rates .
Sound familiar?
06-09-2009, 05:52 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SkyWest Capt.
Posts: 2,963
Times changed a long time ago. You are not facing anything new here.
6 years ago when UAL was in bankruptcy all the regionals bidding on ex Air Wis/ACA flying were also being faced with the 2% margins.
Your company was still able to come up with a sweet enough deal to secure a deal.
They even sold your pilot group on the nonsense that they would not be able to afford to do the UAL flying unless 70 seaters were flown at 50 seat rates .
Sound familiar?
6 years ago when UAL was in bankruptcy all the regionals bidding on ex Air Wis/ACA flying were also being faced with the 2% margins.
Your company was still able to come up with a sweet enough deal to secure a deal.
They even sold your pilot group on the nonsense that they would not be able to afford to do the UAL flying unless 70 seaters were flown at 50 seat rates .
Sound familiar?
06-09-2009, 06:04 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 309
Telling you that the margins are all dried up and making you believe that there is simply no way to pay you anything more than 50 seat rates for a 70 seater is "History repeating itself".
Doesn't sounds like it will be a very hard sell. I guess the fact that everyone fell for it last time but still were able to squeak out a raise in the end creates the dilution that if you can just get the planes on the property you can always get the pay later (it worked last time...eventually...but in your words "times HAVE changed").
This is all premature and I know you are still in the negotiating phase. In the end my posts are only meant to want the best for you guys.
Aim high.
Good luck brother!
Doesn't sounds like it will be a very hard sell. I guess the fact that everyone fell for it last time but still were able to squeak out a raise in the end creates the dilution that if you can just get the planes on the property you can always get the pay later (it worked last time...eventually...but in your words "times HAVE changed").
This is all premature and I know you are still in the negotiating phase. In the end my posts are only meant to want the best for you guys.
Aim high.
Good luck brother!
Last edited by FlyinPiker; 06-09-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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