JetBlue FO's paid more than Republic CA's!!
06-04-2009, 07:35 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 944
The point of his post, I believe, is what most have been saying for a while......Republic pilots need to collectively "GROW A SET", stand up for what is right, and refuse to fly these "100 seat airplanes", which BTW is NOT in your contract, until you are compensated appropriately.
06-04-2009, 08:02 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
Last edited by Sniper; 06-04-2009 at 08:06 AM. Reason: added expectation is beyond 'very minimum'
06-04-2009, 08:25 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 523
Why the defeatist attitude RAH pilot's? I don't care if Jack's flying service with 1 190 is negotiating rates, they shouldn't accept anything less then the the highest other pilot's rates +1%.
My entire family are tradesmen. My bother has worked for 5 companies in the last 18 months. From 600 employees to 6. He gets paid the same regardless. Actors are the same way. If they do an add for Bob's Meat Market or GE, the pay rate is the same. They are free to negotiate higher rates but can't go lower.
My entire family are tradesmen. My bother has worked for 5 companies in the last 18 months. From 600 employees to 6. He gets paid the same regardless. Actors are the same way. If they do an add for Bob's Meat Market or GE, the pay rate is the same. They are free to negotiate higher rates but can't go lower.
06-04-2009, 08:30 AM
#55
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
06-04-2009, 08:33 AM
#56
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
06-04-2009, 08:39 AM
#57
New Hire
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is no $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is no $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
06-04-2009, 08:50 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Professional Expat
Posts: 326
In over 5 years at AWAC, they've tried to junior man me twice. They have, on the other hand, dead-headed me all over the place and canceled more than a few of my flights.
So, I'd rather keep the JM and actually get paid for being at work.
06-04-2009, 08:54 AM
#59
Gets Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: On Top
Posts: 742
The game has changed, but not in the way you see it. Republic is operating 'mainline aircraft' now. Why would Republic need to keep their rates on the 190 low? There are no other airlines that fly revenue guarantee under another airline's brand operating this aircraft. Republic is not competing with Air Wisconsin and Skywest to keep a contract with the 190's - they're competing with mainline to fly them. ExpressJet did not lose the contract and Republic got it. Midwest pilots were furloughed, and now Republic pilots are flying the same routes with similar equipment for over 60% off (when you factor in pay, insurance, retirement, and work rules).
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
To say an airline "must keep an attractive bottom line" sounds to me like an endorsement for 'the race to the bottom'. Please clarify.
It has become clear that the original intent of a 'regional airline', to feed ancillary traffic from smaller communities into the hub, thereby capturing additional revenue' - this is not what 'regional' airlines do anymore (or what any of the 'regionals' with jets do, or even large prop operators). As regionals grow, mainline shrinks - regionals are not 'supporting mainline', they're replacing mainline! While it is most obvious in the Midwest/Republic 190 example, Commair and AE are undercutting Delta and American in just the same way now. We are pilots, not management. Essentially, we are whipsawing ourselves here. Each time a pilot group agrees to fly aircraft for less total compensation, those routes go to the lower cost operator. Republic is just the most glaring example - a 'contractor' that now carries more passengers for 2 different brands than the brand's pilots do (Midwest and Mokulele).
Republic is now operating the same EXACT equipment as mainline (and is also essentially operating as 'mainline' too for 2 brands). As such, they will be compared to mainline on equipment that they both operate. The excuse of 'we're just some lowly guys try to build time with an operator that needs to remain competitive' is no longer valid on the 190. I'd like to see a 190 only base, with a separate pay scale, and workrules, retirement and insurance that are comparable to other mainline carriers - and for all the Republic pilots, you should too. You deserve the option to make a career @ Republic, and retire there happy, rather than having to give up your seniority to go to the bottom of another carrier's list. Republic is now becoming a career airline, and, @ least on the 190, will be judged and compared to its peers, other career airlines.
At the very minimum, Republic's got to get (for the 190) old B6/US EMB 190 +5% (to account for inflation from when US/B6 got their rates), and a raise to over $2/hr per diem ($1.65 in 2003 is now $1.91 in 2009, so this is not asking much at all!). Guaranteed profit sharing or a B-plan should be included too - that's what everyone else flying 190's has. What your goal should be is current JetBlue +1%, but if you get below jetBlue's old rates, that's a concession, and unacceptable.
You guys deserve to be compensated like career pilots on the 190 (@ the VERY least). Good luck in contract negotiations!
I actually agree with your post, but here's the problem, you got guys that will do anything for their ceo and their company in the interest of growth, so I seriously doubt that we will see RAH flying these birds for the old B6 rates or anywhere close.
I would like to be proven wrong here, but until then here's what's going to happen. The negotiating committee is going to come back to these guys with an insulting low ball TA, after BB and his boys convince them that it has to be done for the sake of the company and growth. They may even threaten to furlough (as has been the case at many companies recently) to try to force the issue, and the pilots will cave, "because that's the way business is now", "and because we don't want furloughs", "and because we want growth", "and it's not my fault that they gave up scope", and all the other lame excuses we've heard in this and other forums, and they will happily accept the 190's for sub par rates.
Again, I would like to be proven wrong by the RAH pilot group, and I will publicly apologize on this and any other forum if I'm wrong.
06-04-2009, 09:22 AM
#60
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: Clear Right 320
Posts: 79
Allow me to. I completely agree with you that they should get the best contract they can in their negotiations, I wasn't trying to imply that they should take a low ball offer by any means. What I was trying to convey is they should not expect to get JB or higher (whether we think they should or not). I just don't see how it is economically feasible to the bottom line. Management nor their BOD will see it that way. For their company to survive they must still remain competitive. What I was trying to state is that they are not a mainline entity and therefore cannot expect sole entity rates. Sure I would like to see them get JB or better (and please by all means hold out for it). But I do not wish them to be "stoned" if they do not receive it. I do however expect them to get close. Also, you are correct. They MUST look at the possibility that RAH will be their career employer which is why they need to negotiate the best CBA they can for the present and the future. Excellent post by the way.
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