How much more $ do FO's need to make per year
05-27-2009, 03:26 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Posts: 389
I agree with this pay scale more than any others I have read on this topic. Good thinking!
05-27-2009, 04:28 PM
#52
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Tell that to the new hire FOs in the company who were placed in the Saab with more hours than their Saab Captains (18 month upgrades) next to them.
Tell that to the 10 year FOs who know the plane better than their new CA they're flying with.
Quit trying to make your ego bigger by staring at your epaulets.
You're making a generalization that every FO needs babysitting.
The whole 250 hr FO debate is for an entirely different thread and is quite the exception.
Tell that to the 10 year FOs who know the plane better than their new CA they're flying with.
Quit trying to make your ego bigger by staring at your epaulets.
You're making a generalization that every FO needs babysitting.
The whole 250 hr FO debate is for an entirely different thread and is quite the exception.
Says the one with 3 stripes. When you've been there and been said babysitter, you can talk. You might be a sharp FO- great. Keep up the good work and you'll make a great captain if you pay attention to your favorite guys that you fly with as well as pay attention to what drives you crazy about the idiot captains that you fly with (which are dime a dozen in the regional world).
As far as regional pay- the best way to solve this is scope recapture. Scoop up all 50+ seat flying right back to the majors and at commensurate pay levels to the major contract (yes even the mega dashes- that's a big plane too). All 121 flying shall require ATP minimums and at least 300-500 multi-engine before being considered for an interview. Single seat fighter guys need not apply (jk
if you flew military you may pass Go and collect 100 dollars)First year pay a minimum of around 36000 (say 40 bucks an hour or so- depending on the guarantee level), with second year FO being a minimum of 50000ish. FO rates 60% of CA pay.
Then you will start attracting the right crowd.
05-27-2009, 06:42 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 711
Says the one with 3 stripes. When you've been there and been said babysitter, you can talk. You might be a sharp FO- great. Keep up the good work and you'll make a great captain if you pay attention to your favorite guys that you fly with as well as pay attention to what drives you crazy about the idiot captains that you fly with (which are dime a dozen in the regional world).
My original response had nothing to do with me as 1) I have never boasted and will never boast about my experience even if I compared myself to a pre-solo student pilot. It's silly. 2) I don't fit any of the criteria I listed in reference to FOs. 3) I'll never be in a position to self analyze my "quality" as a pilot. For me to call myself a good pilot and to tell others, "hey, I'm a great pilot and think I'm better than you," wreaks of Top Gun dorky kid attitude.
When I read what the other guy wrote, I had to step in. My company hired some really high time guys (one with 9000 hrs in my class) who were "new pilots" and I'm sure didn't need babysitting, flying-wise, in a Saab 340. Of course every new guy will need guidance with company procedures flying the line. That's something else.
For a random captain to claim to be better than a "new pilot" comes off way too arrogant.
I don't know the qualifications of anyone who's posting in this thread, and quite frankly, I really don't care. Arrogance is arrogance. Stay humble.
05-27-2009, 07:18 PM
#54
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
My point in regards to your post wasn't that we have to "babysit" everyone from the right seat. I had some FO's that had alot more time than I had on the CRJ, and some that had 250 hours total time.
A blanket statement in either direction is fallacy- which was the point of my post (we might have been making the same point, but was probably lost in typical internet fashion). I had some absolutely fantastic FO's and some that had no business sitting even that close to the left seat of an airliner.
A blanket statement in either direction is fallacy- which was the point of my post (we might have been making the same point, but was probably lost in typical internet fashion). I had some absolutely fantastic FO's and some that had no business sitting even that close to the left seat of an airliner.
05-28-2009, 05:04 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 1,105
I still don't understand why it is tied to seats. A life is a life and that's what I feel responsible too.
I think FO's should start somewhere in the mid/high 40's maybe top out in the mid 60's. Captains, no lower than 90 to start, and top out in the 120's at the regional level.
I just got a 13% raise going into year 3, that is crazy. If they'd have paid better from the start it wouldn't need to go up so high so fast. Pay right from day one and then 2-4 percent raises from there. Maybe 2% for doing the minimum required and with some set negotiated goals a couple of percent more to those motivated to step up, if you want to do the min that's fine too.
Major Fo's need to be making 100k or better or there is no reason to move forward. Captains in the high 100's.
Every one is crying and moaning about RAH not making enough, there is no reason Airways or Jet Blue should have ever started that low. Set the bar. The Midwest guys tried too but their competition was willing to do it for less long before Midwest management came to Republic for lift.
I think FO's should start somewhere in the mid/high 40's maybe top out in the mid 60's. Captains, no lower than 90 to start, and top out in the 120's at the regional level.
I just got a 13% raise going into year 3, that is crazy. If they'd have paid better from the start it wouldn't need to go up so high so fast. Pay right from day one and then 2-4 percent raises from there. Maybe 2% for doing the minimum required and with some set negotiated goals a couple of percent more to those motivated to step up, if you want to do the min that's fine too.
Major Fo's need to be making 100k or better or there is no reason to move forward. Captains in the high 100's.
Every one is crying and moaning about RAH not making enough, there is no reason Airways or Jet Blue should have ever started that low. Set the bar. The Midwest guys tried too but their competition was willing to do it for less long before Midwest management came to Republic for lift.
05-28-2009, 05:12 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 1,105
Forget about the majors vs regionals crap. Pay should be based on either seats for the pax folks or max T.O. weight for box haulers.
For the pax world, post probation base pay:
$1 per seat per hour for an FO
$2 per seat per hour for CA
plus a small percentage (3-5%, inflation plus 2%, etc) per year for longevity
plus benefits
And change the regs to require an ATP to sit in either seat. The only way to increase pay, is to make fewer people qualified. And if one believes working a non-airline gig to get to ATP mins is beneath him, then too bad, so sad, tough ******, next case.
For the pax world, post probation base pay:
$1 per seat per hour for an FO
$2 per seat per hour for CA
plus a small percentage (3-5%, inflation plus 2%, etc) per year for longevity
plus benefits
And change the regs to require an ATP to sit in either seat. The only way to increase pay, is to make fewer people qualified. And if one believes working a non-airline gig to get to ATP mins is beneath him, then too bad, so sad, tough ******, next case.
And what is with this probation crap anyway, if I am not good enough for your company you shouldn't have hired me and spent the money to train me in the first place! I'll say that about Jet Blue, at least they treat and value you like everyone else from day one.
If you're a typed ATP full pay form day one. None of this $25 an hour and no health insurance for 6 months.
05-28-2009, 05:17 PM
#59
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,609
Re: $2 per seat CA/$1 per seat FO:
Papa always taught me to never say never, but no airline captain is going to make $500+/hr...at least not in my lifetime. And I'm only 25.
Sure that'd be ideal, but its not realistic in the least.
I agree about the type rating though; in the business aviation world two pilots going through an initial swap seats with the PF almost always in the left seat. Both complete their type rides, then once they get into actual flight ops they can decide how they want to run things (seat swap or dedicated PIC/SIC). Besides, what are the differences between an SIC check and a type rating...a no-flap landing and a circling approach?
Papa always taught me to never say never, but no airline captain is going to make $500+/hr...at least not in my lifetime. And I'm only 25.
Sure that'd be ideal, but its not realistic in the least.
I agree about the type rating though; in the business aviation world two pilots going through an initial swap seats with the PF almost always in the left seat. Both complete their type rides, then once they get into actual flight ops they can decide how they want to run things (seat swap or dedicated PIC/SIC). Besides, what are the differences between an SIC check and a type rating...a no-flap landing and a circling approach?
05-28-2009, 06:16 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,498
Re: $2 per seat CA/$1 per seat FO:
Papa always taught me to never say never, but no airline captain is going to make $500+/hr...at least not in my lifetime. And I'm only 25.
Sure that'd be ideal, but its not realistic in the least.
I agree about the type rating though; in the business aviation world two pilots going through an initial swap seats with the PF almost always in the left seat. Both complete their type rides, then once they get into actual flight ops they can decide how they want to run things (seat swap or dedicated PIC/SIC). Besides, what are the differences between an SIC check and a type rating...a no-flap landing and a circling approach?
Papa always taught me to never say never, but no airline captain is going to make $500+/hr...at least not in my lifetime. And I'm only 25.
Sure that'd be ideal, but its not realistic in the least.
I agree about the type rating though; in the business aviation world two pilots going through an initial swap seats with the PF almost always in the left seat. Both complete their type rides, then once they get into actual flight ops they can decide how they want to run things (seat swap or dedicated PIC/SIC). Besides, what are the differences between an SIC check and a type rating...a no-flap landing and a circling approach?
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