SkyHigh

In my estimation our problems with seniority, experience and wages lies with the current captain/co-pilot system that we have. If all pilots were hired as captains and were all paid the same then you could hire pilots with more experience.

Why would a guy with 4000 hours of quality time want to go and fly for a regional at FO wages? What experienced pilot wants to risk being stuck in the right seat in the seniority system of upgrades? Job satisfaction is more than pay. People need to be respected and to have their needs considered. In our current captain first officer system the captain gets the wages and job satisfaction while the first officer gets to endure an open ended sacrifice of waiting for equal pay and privileges.

There is talk about requiring new hire first officers to have an ATP. My understanding is that the position of first officer was intended as an apprentice job and not to serve as a double PIC. In the op specs of my regional airline the job description of line captain included serving as an instructor and guide to first officers. However if the position of FO is intended to have the same skills, certifications and abilities as the captain then they should make the same wages, carry the same title and trade the left seat every other leg.

In our current situation senior captains usually are the ones who negotiate the contract with management. In most cases they push wages up at the top while the vacuum at the bottom insures that new hires make squat. Then captains complain because management can only hire 300 hour know nothing first officers.

We would have a better profession that attracts better pilots if everyone was able to start at a livable wage and to achieve professional satisfaction on a schedule that was dependent upon performance and not at the whims of management or the economy.

There are plenty of experienced pilots out there however they will not show up for high school kid wages and working conditions.


SKyhigh

higney85

You can't have 2 CA's as the norm.... Someone is going to have to be the decision maker and someone has to only *think* they could do it better. You must have a chief and an indian, otherwise the chiefs just kill each other.

captjns

You can't have two pilots in command. Even with a heavy crew; ie two captains and a first officer, one captain is disgnated as PIC and the other captain is the second in command... while the first officer is well the first officer.

CANAM

It's a novel idea, but the reality is otherwise. The fact is, there will always be a pilot, with or with an ATP, willing to fly for $16,400/year. It's called capitalism. Until there is no supply of cheap labor, things will remain the same. And it appears that the supply is in abundance nowadays. Mesa, GoJet, Great Lakes, ect, have no shortage of applicants.

N118NW

That's because it's generally the only way to get your foot in the doorways of flying for a major.

There is a surplus of pilots right now... from furloughed, laid off, even to those who are CFI's.. many want to get into the regionals and are simply waiting their turn... I'm one of them.

The way I see it is, I've invested 100,000 dollars in my education in being a pilot, I'm going to see my way through to the end of it. If I do something else other than flying, I wasted 100 grand.

CANAM

I hate to say it, but I think many of us have wasted a hundred grand. It's like going to med-school to become a daycare attendant. Except a daycare attendant makes more money than a pilot and is home every night. And, oh yeah, has weekends off.

Purpleanga

That's pretty smart. After the airlines take back the thousands of furloughed, the laid off and the CFIs that were dumb enough to wait for the regionals, you're going to make poverty wages trying to break even on your investment while spending a nice portion of your career at a regional being that almost half of flying is regional here. You could have done a whole lot more with 100000 in career investment money. Maybe there are others that will think twice about this career now.

bryris

There is only one captain, but that doesn't mean the other guy can't be qualified to be a captain. Whomever is sitting left side is the designated PIC. If the guy on the right disagrees with a decision, he speaks up - a duty of an F.O. as well. Think about being a flight instructor. The student is the "PIC" (assuming we're beyond the basics) and makes the decisions regarding the flight. Even though the CFI has more experience, you let the student be a pilot. Only jump in when safety is in question. When I am teaching, I treat the student as the PIC regarding most everything that we've covered previously. The captain qualified "FO" can do the same thing, even if he has more experience. Drop the egos!

I actually like this idea. All pilots are PIC typed in the aircraft. On a side note, what the hell is an SIC type? Answer: A joke. But, I digress:

Both pilots coming in with experience, ATP, and type, and commensurate pay should both be able to command the aircraft competently. What label you slap on them is a side note.

I never upgraded before I got the boot, but some of the guys I flew with had less experience than I had when I left. At the regional level, there is nothing "holier than thou" about a captain vs. 1-2 year FO. But the pay is twice.

You sink or swim together, live or die together, attend the FAA/NTSB hearing together, you ought to be equally qualified and equally able to do the job.

The seniority system has its place. Schedules would be based on it, there would still be a pay raise commensurate with years of service, but it could be a PILOT pay scale, not FO/CA. Sick time accruals, vacation, etc coud all stay based on seniority.

But, we can dream all day long. Back to reality.....

N118NW

Not all of us care about money. Flying is my passion, has been for the previous 10 years... right now while I'm waiting for the industry to turn around, I'm paying off my debts and saving money, so that when I do get picked up by an airline, even if the pay is low for a year or so, I have enough in savings to assist my financial responsibilities.

bryris

I agree. Not to negate anyone in particular that made this decision, but accumulating this kind of debt for this job is a horrible decision on many levels. As was said, "I have 100,000 in debt. If I do anything other than flying, I've wasted it" - paraphrased. You are now a perfect candidate for the job, as you can be displaced, paid nothing, given 1 day off between trips, furloughed, called back, furloughed, etc and you'll stick around, ensuring the airlines' ROI on you is in the black.

The rest of us who took many years to get qualified, but are not laden with debt, have the maneuverability to get out when the lashes get too violent.

Additionally, the cancer on this industry is this whole PASSION thing. First off, I get it. Look at my website URL below. Been there done that, I love it as much as anyone ever has. But, its like the mouse whose lost his tail in yesterday's mousetrap - but he's just GOT to have that cheese!! Eventually its going get the best of him.

The ability to truly walk away is lacking. This industry is a small group, folks. There are only so many places to go.