Aviatormar

No, that's not it at all, nothing would make me sadder, huge companies with thousands out on the streets. Your a dirtbag if you think that saab would think that, he gets "it". What he is saying is the goodtimes are over, or it maybe close to it. The party has stopped and now everyone is going to be in the same boat.

ToiletDuck

Why is everyone assuming the party has stopped? This isn't the first time the industry has been dealt a blow. Aviation isn't going anywhere.

Rascal

Aviation isn't going anywhere but say goodbye to making a good living as an airline pilot. But then again, guys think making 50K as CA is great....

johnso29

I think they may be referring to the massive amount of growth that regionals experienced over the last 5 years. The 50 seat RJ has become uneconomical with oil over $80 a barrel.

I think the possibility exists that oil will approach that mark again. If it sustains that mark it's likely that a lot of 50 seat jets will go to the desert. DAL had already started parking a very large amount of 50 seaters, and the pace only slowed because oil dropped back down to a level where they were somewhat profitable. Once oil goes back up you will see more DCI 50 seaters get parked.

As contracts for 50 seat flying expire you will most likely not see them renewed. The real question is will the number of 76 seaters continue to grow? I will work for the answer to be NO.

Bond

First off, as usual you assume you know everything, and while I know who you are, you don't know me as well. Thus, you don't know that I voted no on our concessionary contract, so please stop acting like you know what I did, or didn't do. Our concessions have nothing to do with this, our company was simply not profitable at the time, and some of our pilot group believed the survival of the company rested on concessions, many of us, but not enough disagreed.

Now we are talking about RAH here last I checked. To that end, you didn't answer the most simple of questions:

If the pay offered by management is substandard will you fly the equipment?

It's a yes or no question. There is no middle ground on it. It's the same as if I asked you if you would cross a picket line? It's a yes or no question.

Jetblue + 10% is their rates adjusted for inflation (rounded off to the nearest percentage point), surely a "financial" wiz of your statue would know that.

By the way, your buddy at fedex must be on the panel, and since they haven't hired anyone in almost a year, even if he was on the right seat, that still means he didn't fly it year 1.

And since unlike the rest of your group, you seem to defend your CEO's every action, it should be noted, that because of his actions, the furloughed pilots and crew members at Midwest are not coming back.....geez, I wonder where in history I've seen this? Maybe around the mid to late 80's, and the same exact circumstances...what was that guy's name? Oh yeah...Frank Lorenzo!!! Turns out he's got quite the following, J.O., Hulas, Bedford.....guy's a hero around your parts.


We're locked in with CAL for the next 6 and half years, so it's highly unlikely we would see the inside of a court room, besides, you clearly don't understand the terms of our CPA, if you did, you would know that it's equally beneficial to CAL that we stay a float.

It's interesting, cause you guys will only have 15 frames on property with CAL by the end of the year and not even 20 departures out of IAH by the end of summer, and you really think you still have an in with CAL, oh yeah, that's right, you talked to Larry a while back, and he told you how much he loves CHQ, right after they accelerated the retirement of the CRJ's and some of the 145's (which are being leased to Aeromexico). So we get to pick up the slack, by keeping 10 extra frames above CPA in service to cover the CRJ's and some of the 145's. The only way, you guys could see growth at CAL, is if scope goes away, and you know perfectly well where the CAL pilots stand on that, if you don't, next time you're hanging around IAH, approach one of them and ask them, you may need about 2 hours, cause that's about how long their going to go into it. Management has nothing else they can take away from them, and during negotiations, they've already turned it down.

We got as much chance of going belly up, as you guys do, that should tell you something.

So again I pose the question yes or no:

Will you fly the equipment for subpar wages?


You may not see the big picture, but the rest of the industry is relying on you guys getting a good contract, and CAL getting a good contract, as it will set the bar for future negotiations.

I am glad you're no involved with the negotiations at your company, you seem to have almost an adoration for your management.

Best of luck to those involved in the negotiation process.

Emb170man

I'm not saying it would make you happy. However, I put TD and SAAB in the same boat as constant whiners who do nothing but put everyone else's employer down while chugging their own companies kool-aid one gallon at a time. I've seen a lot of SAAB posts that make me think that the thought of RAH disappearing give him a little woody. Not too many people on APC (and there are a LOT of folks on here) are more polarizing indivduals than TD and SAAB.

ToiletDuck

You keep thinking you do but every fact you ever tried to post about me has been completely wrong.

I never said I knew how you voted. I spoke of the outcome of the pilot group. So if we lose Midex and start taking a loss it's ok for us to take a cut then?

I answered it perfectly clear. I'll re-post it. (I even wrote "That Simple" to show how simple it really was to understand)

1)you didn't say 10% 2)What inflation? To adjust their rates for inflation you'd take their current rate then adjust it for the average of 2.5-3% to year. That would be a match. Secondly JBLU has workrules that pay more per hour. A wiz of my stature does know that. Wiz=General education and ability to read.

Who said FedEx? You said UPS. I jumpseated on UPS. The guy had just completed three weeks of flying abroad and his wife gave me a ride to the terminal. Since it was the only time I took UPS to work I'm pretty solid on the info.

It's hard to take anything you say serious when this is the junk you try to spout off. I don't defend his actions. Never have. If you'd read my post I've pointed to that several times. However I have said he's good at making money. That's his job. Because of his actions the midwest guys aren't coming back? You sure it's not their management and the decisions they've made the past few years that had anything to do with it? Or the lack of strike from their pilot group so the work could then not be flown? You're saying you would have rather watched the doors close last year and all them be on the street?



Learn how BK works. Your CPA and agreements with CAL mean jack if they go BK. You can see this first hand with why DAL/US Air want Mesa to declare BK or you can simply look at what happened at airlines that have declared BK in the past. XJT pays money each month for the aircraft to fly for CAL. If they can't make payments then those aircraft will go to someone who can and there's nothing your contract can do about it. Google


CRJ's are being accelerated? Since when? The ERJs are not being leased they are sold. Lastly the aircraft pulled off CAL will be replaced with aircraft ending their contract with UAL.

Wait you're picking up slack? You sure it's not just reduced flying?

Yea that one of us is drinking kool-aid. XJT has gone from an adjusted(due to reverse split) $147 per share to $1.11 per share with -7.83 EPS(that's earnings per share). The cash flow has gone from -$102million in 2007(When "everythings just fine branded's doing great") to -$131 million in 2008(Branded closed and contract signed with CAL for a loss).

enterprise value of the company is -30.1mil vs RAH at 2.41bil and SKYW at 1.93 bil.
Profit Margin is -6.69% vs 5.72% and 3.23% respectively.
Operating Cashflow is -56.09m vs 242.29m and 415.54m.

So telling me that we "got" the same odds is complete bull. XJT is the weakest followed by RAH leaving SKYW as the king of the regional world. "It should tell you somthing" and it sure did. That you can't use google(or yahoo) and that you make up facts. All of those numbers are free and available to the public and took maybe 10min max to look at them all. I'll even make it easy for you.

XJT: Key Statistics for EXPRESSJET HLDGS INC - Yahoo! Finance
RJET: Key Statistics for Republic Airways Holdings, Inc. - Yahoo! Finance
SKYW: Key Statistics for SkyWest, Inc. - Yahoo! Finance
I think I had you jumpseating on a flight of mine and when you fell asleep we kept hearing "everything here is great" being mumbled lol



Do you? Where does a regional taking a paycut fit into it all? You think it helps things? You don't think the company isn't using that as a reason to show why we're too expensive as is?


I don't think you'll find anyone more hard-up for better wages. Saying my management is good at making money doesn't mean I don't think I deserve my slice of it.

Now remember before jumping back in with a rash of facts that would be more credible from a F/A of a bankrupt asian airline. Try reading first. Then go back and read it again. Then go onto google or yahoo and find things that support those wild statements. I also don't think you really know the story of Lorenzo so I went ahead and found that for you too.
Frank Lorenzo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enjoy!

Who says spoon feeding isn't fun!

ce650

Come on Bond, the suspense of waiting for your reply is killing me.

Av8rking

Isn't Bid Daddy D scoped out on the LARGE RJ's? If they want regional growth it will have to be on the 50's. I hope you guys can hold strong on the scope!

Bond

Ah, but you did. The fact of the matter is that our paycuts have no relevance to your negotiations, as our f/o's and captains still make more money than yours on the same equipment.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...ional-lcc.html

Actually you didn't, fair and substandard are two different things. The fact that you even look at it that way makes you sound like a management type, and less like your fellow brothers on the line.

Seriously? Do I have to explain to you that the term addresses date of sign plus inflation since? WOW! You should try reading flying the line I and II, it will give you a good background on how contracts get negotiated...wiz!

I admit when I make a mistake and meant to type UPS, all the same, they haven't hire in over a year.

So you're saying Bedford had no part in the demise of the labor groups at Midwest? Wow! Are you sure about that?

Here's a news flash for you, google boy, everyone knows that the CPA is amendable if either company goes into BK protection. At present CAL is in better shape than the rest of the Legacies, and as mentioned previously, there's no indication that XJT is even close to bankruptcy. Here's an example of your ignorance. CAL pays all expenses associated with COEX, and they even pay 50% of the charter fleet, all in the CPA, which you're clealy unfamiliar with. In exchange, we operate under a lower margin of profit. Again, get a clue!


At the CEO exchange your boy LK told the folks attending that CHQ would be down to 15 aircraft by the end of the year, and that XJT would pick up some of the lift with the additional 10 aircraft beyond the CPA we're already operating. What was that about adding and subtracting that you said earlier? 204+10= 214 how's that a reduction again?

My friend, you're so jaded towards XJT on account of you getting rejected when you applied, that all you ever do is figure ways to make it look like we're going under. Sorry your IAH base didn't work out!

What you fail to see is that what ever you guys work out, will set the bar for us, and quite a few other regionals in the next few years, and that's what this is all about.

So, will you, TD (I should use your real name, but the mods will block it) take a seat in a 190 or your current equipment for substandard wages?

It's a simple question yes or no? There is no middle ground pal, no if it's fair (because that's subjective), it either matches and surpasses industry standard or it doesn't, which one is it? Show us what you're made off....

Oh, and I can't believe you quoted Wikipedia, talk about losing your credibility as quick as we turned you down at XJT!!!!!