cessnamann

You’re exactly right, by the end of 07 even the highest paid small lift providers (ASA, SKYW, AWAC, EXJET, CMR) were hiring pilots with 300-500hrs and no degree to fill classes, although it was not the norm. At the lower paying airlines it was the norm. With the economy and age 65 that all changed. Now with less pilots entering initial training, a growing demand by 2011, and the age 65 retirements a massive pilot shortage in the 2012 time frame can be a reality.

cessnamann

Here is some food for thought on why airline pilot pay has become what it is. Let’s look at Doctors, lawyers, and Airline Pilots. Each of these three groups has distinct skills and responsibilities. How are doctors, lawyers, and pilots certified? To be considered a professional lawyer you must pass the BAR exam. The BAR is administered by other lawyers and in many states it is a requirement to practice law. To be a Doctor in almost all cases you must be certified by the AMA. The BAR and AMA have complete control over the supply of doctors and lawyers, in a sense they are unions or each group. To be an airline FO you must only poses a commercial pilot certificate. This hardly makes you qualified to fly a jet with 70 people on board, even if you can do a killer lazy eight. Who determines whether you are qualified to be an airline pilot…..the airline, which is “supervised” by the FAA. An airlines sole purpose is to make a profit for its shareholders, yet they are the ones who set the experience standard to safeguard the lives of their passengers. IMHO t is the equivalent of hiring a doctor who has only completed ½ of medical school, knowing you can pay them less. We all know the best education a pilot can have is experience. I have never heard ALPA say that experience requirements at regional airlines are too low. Maybe ALPA should push for standard experience requirements to be an airline pilot and model themselves more like the BAR and AMA and then let the market help our pay scales. As long as an airline determines what makes you qualified to be an airline pilot, they will always find someone less experienced to do your job for less. The FAA doesn’t seem to notice or care.

dh05z28

This is the way I see it. From a business stand point....Once the age 65 rule takes effect, the regionals are left with one of two choices to deal with the shortage. A: lower minimums to around 300 TT 25 multi or B: raise wages to attract potential pilots.

The obvious answer is A; however this does not have to be the case. I think the easiest way to stop this would be to regulate the minumums. Think of what would happen if the minimums for an FO where 1000 TT or higher.

I know what your thinking, the minimums used to be even higher than that and they still paid crap! True. But this next hiring bubble will be like no other. If airlines are running at the same capacity in the next four years, they will have no other choice but to hire like crazy. A perfect storm is upon the HR departments of many airlines.

With the minimums as low as they where in the last fews years, pilots where willing to sacrifice money to get in the right seat of a jet after 6 months or less of training. Look at what happend to CFI salaries during the regional boom. I had several offers of 40k a year and full benefits from most. This happend because less people needed to instruct to get where they ultimately wanted to go. With minimums being higher, less folks would be willing to stick it out. This leaves the airlines with choice B...higher salaries for all.

cessnamann

1000TT regulatory/contractual requirement would benefit our profession greatly. Also a lot of people (myself included) love to bash ERAU/UND and other collegiate aviation programs because of their cost. Imagine what it would do for our pay if these institutions were the only ones certified to provide commercial pilot training. The almost limitless supply of 6 month zero to hero graduates for the airlines to choose from would go away really fast. I’m not trying to sound like an elitist, but hiring pilots who did not graduate from college degrades our profession and our pay.

zondaracer

Because some of us can't pass the Brooks' medical

wizepilot

No, you don't have to try to sound like an elitist. You are. I entered aviation on my own dime. All ratings including the ATP paid for out of my pocket. No government subsidies, no VA benefits. Now you're going to tell me that I don't deserve to be where I am today because I did not graduate from college? Not even 10 years ago if you didn't have 1500TT and 1,000ME, no one would even talk to you. When you have been in aviation for 36 years, then maybe you will know what you're talking about.

Bug Smasher

Sorry, but this is as bad an idea as the OP. maybe worse. If every single FO being hired at the company had his iPod earbuds permanently hair gel'd into his ears and walked around with his nose in the lower flight levels, it's doubtful the supposed increase in pay would be enough to offset the swing in culture we'd have.

Apologies to the nice guys who paid $120K more than I did for my college and ratings, but some of you need to wake up and realize that just because daddy could sign a big check doesn't make you a better pilot. And it sure doesn't help develop a pleasant personality.

I'm not perfect by any stretch - but I did earn my way into this job through more than a decade of hard work instead of 4 years of walking to class in formation with my friends.

If the major schools tore out the glass panels, got some ratty old airplanes with the training wheel in the back, maybe a few specimens of round engines, geared engines and electives included Night Freight 202, Maintenance Flight Test 412 and Tailwheel 101, then you'd have my attention. I'd stop making fun of their graduates so much because they'd know how to fly as opposed to following the flight director. But when you propose that the only schools who should allow you to into the profession will have you checked out on three of the world's most pampered and docile trainers types before they turn you loose to fly jets with a bunch of deferrals, my heart shudders.

/rant.

bryris

Let me guess...you went to college for aviation? Ah ha, this is why it should be this way. Funny now everyone's take benefits their personal situation.

This is such a screwed up profession. I was thumbing through Flying the other day and saw an ad in the back for Eaglejets. You can write them a check for $18,900 bucks paying for your own training, to then get interviewed and put into the hiring pool for Eagle. Mind you, you have to have commercial multi before even showing up. And furthermore, when is American Eagle EVER going to hire off the street again? ITS JUST INSANITY. It is nothing short of taking advantage of SJS affected lads.

One interesting thing about this field is that a significant portion of the total revenue created in commercial aviation is in training more pilots. Everyone out there in the profession wants to make money above all else. Thus, in the case of ERAU, AllATPS, DCA, or whomever, getting pilots in and out quickly is what makes them money - whether you succeed or fail as a pilot is irrelevant. This is why you thumb through the magazines and shiny brochures and see the young pilots with their eyes aimed upward, the jet flying overhead, four stripes, and a Mona Lisa smile on their faces that speaks, "I've got it made". I've never seen that person, EVER! But the propaganda out there promotes that and it works. The education side of this industry is a self fueled engine unto itself.

I still believe that however you arrive at the doorstep with the qualifications, if you can pass the training program, you deserve to be there. Does that mean you are as good a pilot as anyone else who also made it through? No. But most professions are this way. You pass the bar exam, you can practice, CPA exam, you can practice, etc.

It'd be interesting to discuss what the ramifications of a board of professional pilots who govern the profession would be vs. the government. For example, the CPA exam (which I am familiar) is administered by the AICPA (American Institute of CPAs) and overseen in Florida by the FICPA (Florida Institute of CPAs). Neither of these are government bodies, but are created by the profession to govern entrants into the profession. The exam is made up and graded by them and certification standards and experience requirements are determined by them. One HUGE difference is that pilots learn to fly for fun often, whereas accountants only do it for money, thus there is a huge spillover of piloting standards outside of the professional arena that must be governed my someone, aka the government. So it muddies the waters a bit, but the idea is potentially sound.

theaviator

This is actually funny, you apparently havnt been around the "real" world too long. We all know that having a degree doesnt justify you being in a position over someone who doesnt. Unfortunately, executives from fortune 500 companies think other wise. I am good friends with a man who works in corporate sales for a grocery firm. He HAS to hire someone with a degree over someone who doesnt, regardless of their work experience. Although I do not agree that this should happen, I do agree that the US needs educated people. With time, the educated person gains experience... thus becoming more marketable than you. Times are changing, get with them.

waflyboy

Al Ueltschi, founder of Flight Safety is worth around $1.5 billion. Apparently you can make money in aviation!