bryris

Someone can die and be just as dead regardless of the level of automation the aircraft possesses. While I agree with your sentiment, 135 time is better experience in many cases than 121 time SIC, one should be paid for the level of responsibility they are assuming, not for what they actually DO.

A ditch digger works harder than I do every single day, but I make a hell of a lot more. The difference is that if the ditch is dug incorrectly, you just fix it. You can't undo a mistake in the aviation world.

Same thing with lawyers, doctors, CPAs, and other professionals, they never get their hands dirty, wear starched shirts, and sit in A/C all day. But if a mistake is made, lawsuits fly - and that risk deserves adequate compensation.

An FO for 121 is second in command. As such, he/she should not get PIC pay, of course. But should the captain have a problem, who is responsible for the safety of the multi million dollar airplane and its occupants? Decisions will be made that could bring largely different outcomes in the end.

flight0813

Polishpilot; You’re brainstorming to resolve this dilemma and that’s good. That is exactly what we all should be doing instead of giving into resignation, which seems to be in full force on this site most of the time. I thought of a similar idea years ago. 5 bucks per seat adds up to a lot of money and who cares about 5 bucks I thought? Turns out the average Joe Public does and he’ll spend 3 hours sifting through Airlines on Orbitz, Priceline, ect… to save that five bucks. The only way to increase the cost of a ticket (and increase our pay and self respect) that I can see is for regulation as you proposed or for ALPA to get off their *ss and work for their (our) money. I work hard for my peanuts and they should work hard to get a bite of mine. If ALPA were to take on a full attack against all airlines backed by all airline pilots at one time we may be able to change something. What is ALPA’s reason for existence at this point? By asking that I don’t mean get rid of ALPA. I mean; isn’t their entire existence to keep us out of the current situation we are in? I don’t know what to do about that. If ALPA was any other service provider of mine and they didn’t hold up to their services I would discontinue the service. But on the other hand we need a union. Where is our representation?
My rant is over for now.
Keep brainstorming!!!

SebastianDesoto

I was going to make similar comments. I'll reiterate what has been previously said. If no one does the job for the pay companies are offering, then one of two things will happen. Either the service simply will not be offered, or the pay will increase.

The way to raise pay is simply do not become a regional airline pilot. Do not go to pilot school and assume all the financial responsibility for your own training.

I am looking for a different job right now (bad time). I will do my best to help this industry by simply not working for it. But I am not quitting unless I can walk into something else.

As far as the union route goes go, it is full of good people. But it requires a lot of faith in the system. They certainly help on day to day injustices and help to insure high levels of professionalism. I have faith in the people that volunteer their time to the union, but not much faith in the system as a whole. If you are not willing or able to walk away from the company or the job, then striking and other tactics are just gamesmanship.

Help the airline career. Become a lawyer or a doctor.

SebastianDesoto

Actually, I am little surprised no one in ALPA or any other major pilot union hasn't raised the idea of organizing a campaigning against pilot schools. Maybe something that would help cut future supply off and absolutely force businesses to do something about it. Maybe take out large ads in pilot magazines or news paper ads. I volunteer for that.

wwings

It seems many people on this thread have a case of pull up the ladder behind you after you are already onboard the boad

I certainly agree that the current trajectory that regional airlines are on lowers pay for pilots everywhere...

Isn't organizing a campaign against flight training a little off? Exepting (many) of those with a military background, every regional, major, 135, and cooporate, got where they are because of a flight school, and owe much of their experience building to CFI jobs.

It is really easy to keep your OWN interests in mind and wish for fewer flight schools, while at the same time asking everyone else to sacrifice for the common good...

JoeyMeatballs

how about a stronger negotiating committee

JoeyMeatballs

WE (ALPA) are........


I urge you guys to send your thoughts/suggestions to ALPA's National Education Committee Chairmen, as well as a fellow Expressjet F/O, Paul Ryder an email

[email protected]

flight0813

Yeah I agree, The nursing profession does it. There are waiting lists to get into college. They only let so many in according to demand. It keeps the pay scale in check and allows the colleges to require higher grades and accomplishments by those who want in.

SebastianDesoto

Good point, well articulated.

However, I think you missed the intent of my post. Maybe going after flight schools with a vengeful attitude is not a correct response. They are businesses that have to use effective marketing to keep themselves running. However, countering propaganda with education, real opinions and perspectives might help.

Now that I am here, I feel a little guilty myself. I point to myself as one of the reasons that many pilots have to make large sacrifices and face major uncertainties for slim rewarding prospects. I fell for the propaganda. I fell for the "pay your dues" attitude. I spent way too much on flight training because I fell for the idea that certain schools provided a better quality training product than others (my family did too).

I would like to apologize to the rest of the professional pilot community for my mistake. I kind of feel like the only logical action at this point would be to cut my loses and jump off the boat. But i got nothing to jump into. I think that is a similar scenario that many people find themselves in. If you have kids, a mortgage and your family requires two incomes, you may feel even more stuck in the current situation. So in that perspective, it doesn't look so bleak to me. I can still make major changes and keep my overpriced hobby. I think that doing so will be for the greater good.

CaptainTeezy

Remember...it is not airline vs airline (even though that's what they want you to think). It is really pilots vs management. Maybe the almighty unions can get a strike that transcends multiple airlines. Would a strike be more successful if there were 4 airlines that all just walked out on the same day??? And start small...have one demand...for example anyone flying a plane with 50+ seats must have an FO starting hourly rate of $30.00 with a $4.00 raise a year. Have the unions get together and form a contract...and maybe have stipulations that management must not make over X amount of dollars if the pilots are only making X-Y amount of dollars. Otherwise the UNIONS ARE WORTHLESS!