View Poll Results: Are you happy with ALPA at the regionals?
Yes
17
16.35%
No
87
83.65%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll
May 1999 to May 2009 Pinnacle Contract
03-16-2009, 09:18 AM
#41
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
1. The media has never cared about what we make. In they eyes of the public we are over paid and all we do is sit up front drinking coffee, and reading the paper.
2. Yes, the board is public but YOU need to keep in mind the following analogy.
Would you go to a public park, find a black bear's den, walk in, wake em up, and it expect to be a pleasant meeting?
This is a board where we AS AIRLINE PILOTS are discussing a contract negotiations process. Learn the RLA, read ALPA's history (Flying the Line v. I and II) and then let us know what we are doing so wrong. Until then you are swimming against the current.
2. Yes, the board is public but YOU need to keep in mind the following analogy.
Would you go to a public park, find a black bear's den, walk in, wake em up, and it expect to be a pleasant meeting?
This is a board where we AS AIRLINE PILOTS are discussing a contract negotiations process. Learn the RLA, read ALPA's history (Flying the Line v. I and II) and then let us know what we are doing so wrong. Until then you are swimming against the current.
03-16-2009, 09:40 AM
#42
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
You should be able to get copies at any book store. I bought mine at barnes and noble.
03-16-2009, 10:06 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: CRJ Captain
Posts: 1,406
I'm happy with the union at 9E and I'm furious with the NMB under bush. The deck is already stacked in management's favor by the RLA and the Bush NMB took away labor's best and biggest leverage (a legal strike).
In that climate its no wonder we didn't get a good contract. ASA showed us how its done when the dice are loaded... nice job guys.
Now I'm hopeful that we'll see some progress because of Obama's appointee to the NMB. She was president of the flight attendant's union. When she's in I think we'll be released very quickly.
I'm ready to burn it down but i'll play by the rules with a reasonable person heading to the NMB.
In that climate its no wonder we didn't get a good contract. ASA showed us how its done when the dice are loaded... nice job guys.
Now I'm hopeful that we'll see some progress because of Obama's appointee to the NMB. She was president of the flight attendant's union. When she's in I think we'll be released very quickly.
I'm ready to burn it down but i'll play by the rules with a reasonable person heading to the NMB.
03-16-2009, 12:37 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Position: CRJ-200 First Officer
Posts: 262
Look how quickly we got a new contract when the safety campaign happened. Why don't you learn from our hardships and do what needs to be done. Why wait and wait for a better contract from management. It won't happen, ever. They will fly you on this same contract till the end of time if you let them.
03-16-2009, 12:46 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 426
Look how quickly we got a new contract when the safety campaign happened. Why don't you learn from our hardships and do what needs to be done. Why wait and wait for a better contract from management. It won't happen, ever. They will fly you on this same contract till the end of time if you let them.
I'm thankful that I am still employed and I do love my job, but I have serious doubts that this airline will ever be a good place to work. Pinnacle is setup on investing little to nothing in the employee, investing little to nothing in retaining employees, and they count on you leaving for another airline while you're still on the part of the payscale that is 20-30% below industry average. The overall tone of management at this airline is very clear. They don't want you to work here.
Last edited by Noseeums; 03-16-2009 at 01:15 PM.
03-16-2009, 08:03 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: CA
Posts: 534
Unfortunately any new contract with Pinnacle management looks farther and farther away.
Some of the latest company attempts to cover the CFO's auction rate securities that are coming due.....
1. Firing half the base management staff and forcing the others to work twice as much for less money.
2. Canceling 401k match to employees.
3. Furloughing mechanics and trying to find someone to finance their spare parts operation.
4. Forcing a 401k change from Diversified Investments to Fidelity, in the meantime the company is raking in the interest off the employees money everyday. (Anyone have money at Fidelity yet?) - Must be lost in the internet black hole somewhere...
5. Switching employee payroll to 'in-house' so they can keep the payroll funds another 5 days(gaining interest), which has been a debacle for the people trying to run the program in Memphis.
There is no way this management team is going to write a check for a new contract with big retro pay right now. Just the reality of what they are doing....
Hard to believe they got themselves sooo far down this road.
Some of the latest company attempts to cover the CFO's auction rate securities that are coming due.....
1. Firing half the base management staff and forcing the others to work twice as much for less money.
2. Canceling 401k match to employees.
3. Furloughing mechanics and trying to find someone to finance their spare parts operation.
4. Forcing a 401k change from Diversified Investments to Fidelity, in the meantime the company is raking in the interest off the employees money everyday. (Anyone have money at Fidelity yet?) - Must be lost in the internet black hole somewhere...
5. Switching employee payroll to 'in-house' so they can keep the payroll funds another 5 days(gaining interest), which has been a debacle for the people trying to run the program in Memphis.
There is no way this management team is going to write a check for a new contract with big retro pay right now. Just the reality of what they are doing....
Hard to believe they got themselves sooo far down this road.
03-17-2009, 04:15 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
Look how quickly we got a new contract when the safety campaign happened. Why don't you learn from our hardships and do what needs to be done. Why wait and wait for a better contract from management. It won't happen, ever. They will fly you on this same contract till the end of time if you let them.
This is the PERFECT time to write the check....they have money now and can give what will seem a decent contract, especially in these economic times...then, when the payment comes due in 2010, they can scream "it's the evil, greedy pilot's fault...." and come to us for concessions or B-ruptcy. When times are bad, you buy on the cheap...this is a good opportunity for mgmt. Think about this, if we get released the company is hosed. No way we settle for industry average if they take it all the way to the brink of a strike. MGMT will have lost if it comes to release. They pay now, then they've gained 4 years on an old contract and could possibly win concessions in less than a year! win for mgmt.
1. uncle phil and his boys own a lot of stock, and they bought LOTS of it at 10 bucks a share.
2. the company bought back millions of stock at 14 bucks a share.
3. we have no real assets.
NONE and i repeat NONE of the people we owe money to want pinnacle to go into bankruptcy and they would not even ask for it. We have no assets for them to get there money out of us in bankruptcy court. there best bet is to just let the payments slide, like it said in the press release. this big debt that is due in 2010 is just a scam to scare people who dont understand what is going on. So lets say the day comes around and we dont have the money. what are the people that we owe money to going to do? force us into bk and liquidate? they would get 0 for that since we dont own anything. nope they will just let us make good size payment and renegotiate the rest of it. dont be fooled by the scare tactics.
03-17-2009, 05:11 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 787
no. look how quickly you got a new contract when OWNERSHIP changed hands. your safety campaign did nothing. it was the fact that uncle jerry went down there and said to settle this thing now.
no way in a million years does pinnacle want to file for bankruptcy.
1. uncle phil and his boys own a lot of stock, and they bought LOTS of it at 10 bucks a share.
2. the company bought back millions of stock at 14 bucks a share.
3. we have no real assets.
NONE and i repeat NONE of the people we owe money to want pinnacle to go into bankruptcy and they would not even ask for it. We have no assets for them to get there money out of us in bankruptcy court. there best bet is to just let the payments slide, like it said in the press release. this big debt that is due in 2010 is just a scam to scare people who dont understand what is going on. So lets say the day comes around and we dont have the money. what are the people that we owe money to going to do? force us into bk and liquidate? they would get 0 for that since we dont own anything. nope they will just let us make good size payment and renegotiate the rest of it. dont be fooled by the scare tactics.
no way in a million years does pinnacle want to file for bankruptcy.
1. uncle phil and his boys own a lot of stock, and they bought LOTS of it at 10 bucks a share.
2. the company bought back millions of stock at 14 bucks a share.
3. we have no real assets.
NONE and i repeat NONE of the people we owe money to want pinnacle to go into bankruptcy and they would not even ask for it. We have no assets for them to get there money out of us in bankruptcy court. there best bet is to just let the payments slide, like it said in the press release. this big debt that is due in 2010 is just a scam to scare people who dont understand what is going on. So lets say the day comes around and we dont have the money. what are the people that we owe money to going to do? force us into bk and liquidate? they would get 0 for that since we dont own anything. nope they will just let us make good size payment and renegotiate the rest of it. dont be fooled by the scare tactics.
I think if people were worried about the 2010 debt payment, our stock would have gone down to the 0-50 cent range by now. If anyone thought the company couldn't handle that payment, they would've dumped the stock completely by now. Instead, it's up 60-75% since the 2008 earnings were released...
Last but not least, the company's ASAs with DAL/NWA provide for "passing on the bill" to Delta if we get an industry average contract...the company's only financial burden from a new contract would be a slight increase in necessary staffing due to reserve forumlas, days off, and work rules, which they might be able to absorb without new hires anyways.
The company needs stock value to finance that 2010 note, and signing a new pilot contract would provide a boost to their equity via an increase in share prices, especially in the short period after signing a new contract (with a new labor-friendly NMB in place, the removal of a 99% strike vote should be a boost to investor confidence (or rather remove one major hinderance to investor confidence)).
My personal theory is that the company will give us a contract just prior to the Feb 2010 debt payment deadlines...they can then renegotiate the terms of those debt obligations on a wave of shareholder optimism and the short-term boost in stock value caused by a multiyear pilot contract. They lose nothing (pass the bill on to Delta), and the gain a lot (positive news and share price bump just prior to going to the table with the Feb '10 creditors).
03-17-2009, 05:17 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 787 FO
Posts: 125
I have two words for you guys:
Safety First!
Unless your pilot group (not your union) individually (yet collectively) decides to actively promote "Safety First," you'll never get the contract you desire. This has been proven many times over by others who have been where you are today.
I mentioned this concept recently to a Pinnacle jumpseater. He agreed, yet made it clear that your pilot group is afraid that if performance suffers, Delta will attempt to cancel your contract. This is true. What you must understand, is that your Management is even more afraid of this than you are. At some point Delta will come to your management and say, "either you guys get your act together (i.e. get a pilot contract) or we're going to start cancelling your flying." If this happens, I guarantee, within a week, you'll have a contract.
Safety First!
Unless your pilot group (not your union) individually (yet collectively) decides to actively promote "Safety First," you'll never get the contract you desire. This has been proven many times over by others who have been where you are today.
I mentioned this concept recently to a Pinnacle jumpseater. He agreed, yet made it clear that your pilot group is afraid that if performance suffers, Delta will attempt to cancel your contract. This is true. What you must understand, is that your Management is even more afraid of this than you are. At some point Delta will come to your management and say, "either you guys get your act together (i.e. get a pilot contract) or we're going to start cancelling your flying." If this happens, I guarantee, within a week, you'll have a contract.
DING DING DING we have a winner
03-17-2009, 06:33 AM
#50
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 88
Noseeum is correct. They could care less about their employees and will NEVER invest anymore than they are forced to by outside sources (eg- FAA/NTSB). Anything more than that is a waste of their money and bonuses.
Managements' plan was working pretty well for years when they would just continue to extend the current contract and mid-level to senior Captains were flooding out the door. Now the music has stopped and there's no where to go...
Think about it, every time a 7yr Captain goes out the door that's just another 20 grand of retro pay the company gets to pocket. Now that's not happening.
I still don't see management making any contract movement until the pilots are released by the NMB, and that is still going to take some time...even at this point.
Make one thing clear, the company and CFO are scrambling to cover this note. You can read it in the 10k transcript and in the conference call. Just listen to the questions from the investment firms.
CB
Managements' plan was working pretty well for years when they would just continue to extend the current contract and mid-level to senior Captains were flooding out the door. Now the music has stopped and there's no where to go...
Think about it, every time a 7yr Captain goes out the door that's just another 20 grand of retro pay the company gets to pocket. Now that's not happening.
I still don't see management making any contract movement until the pilots are released by the NMB, and that is still going to take some time...even at this point.
Make one thing clear, the company and CFO are scrambling to cover this note. You can read it in the 10k transcript and in the conference call. Just listen to the questions from the investment firms.
CB
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