Any furloughed Gulfstream Airlines Pilots?
02-23-2009, 09:11 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
I am simply just stating the facts as they have worked for me, and I think that their program works, I happen to know they turn out very professional, safety conscience pilots who have been trained very well in CRM. I have a very good friend who went here also and then on to Mesaba...so it is what it is, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.
02-23-2009, 09:32 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
There were also three other pilots on those flight crews that came up other ways. I thought I had heard all the idiotic statements I could and then along comes the king. And from someone who has probably never spent a day in a 121 training event. ...sorry super pilot didnt mean to offend your sensibilities. Make you feel good to spit on other pilots graves. You feel better about yourself now.
02-23-2009, 09:45 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
I do want to take the time to thank everyone, even those that disagree with me, for taking the time to read my post in the spirit it was intended. I have recieved some positive and negative feedback on a lot of PM's, but almost all were professional debating, and that is a very good thing when many disagree. Thank you all for your time and opinions and for reading mine. Heres to hoping we are all back at work soon, and have less time to state our opinions on APC...Tongue in cheek
I do see your points however, in my view pay-for-training or your so called internship is simply morally wrong. When Sully talked about the degradation of OUR profession that's exactly what he meant.
In other words, in the past our skills meant something and people were willing to pay for those skills. Nowadays however, we have pilots who are willing to pay to work in order to speed up their entry into the industry.
Any businessman or businesswoman would gladly accept people working for free and better yet, people who are willing to pay to work! …so of course they do just that.
You say that you did not take a job from anyone? Well, I guess when the Beech 1900 (is that what you fly? - I'm not sure?) was built it was meant to be a single pilot airplane, right? Oh wait, no there were supposed to be 2 pilots there from the GetGo, right?!
Two pilots who were earning an income; not one pilot babysitting the other so he/she can get enough experience to hopefully be hired by the company once he has 250+ hours of flight time. I don't doubt that you all studied very hard and did well in training. However, to say you did not take jobs from anyone is simply incorrect; that right seat was meant to be occupied by a “crew member” not a “crew member in training” who hopefully after the 250 hours of "internship" might or might not be hired. To imply otherwise is just preposterous.
It's like saying you're having a brain surgery with one doctor who's fully trained while the other might get hired after his/her "250 surgeries-internship” period during which he’ll be poking on peoples’ brains for experience. No way! Once in the cockpit (or the surgery room) you're supposed to be a full crew member, an internship does not count.
Especially a paid internship which is just a way to change the negative connotation people have with pay-to-fly programs. People create or use bogus names to make things sound better all the time. Heck, a few years back I had to translate the term "affirmative action" to my mom into my native language. Couldn't come up with the right word until I looked it up in the dictionary - there it said: "positive discrimination." Now, that doesn't sound good, does it? So let's call it something else, affirmative action sounds much better, right? A different subject but the very same idea, lets rename something people don't like into something they care much less about.
Since when do interns pay for their internships by the way? I did a six months long United internship many moons ago and was paid zero dollars. (the only perk was the possibility, not a guarantee of a future interview once I met their 1,000 turbine pic hiring minimums.)
So they didn’t pay me but I didn’t have to pay anything for it either. If I did, it wouldn't be an internship, now would it?
PS. I hope we can continue this discussion without people getting too personal...
02-24-2009, 04:14 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 890
I am writing not to start an argument but the OP requested to hear from a furloughed Gulfstream Airlines pilot, and only time will tell if people really want to hear the truth, or if they are just claiming they do, so they can find someone to bash on. All I can do is provide the FACTS, I cannot force anyone to change their opinion. Unfortunately most of the opinions held against GIA and the pilot group is based on “ I heard a story from my brothers friends, sisters cousin who flew with a guy who flew with a supposed GIA Pilot. I challenge you to read this without bias. Just hear the other side. If you still dont agree that is your right.thanks
Rumor: Gulfstream Pilots pay to ride in the right seat, after taking a checkride in the sim
Fact: Gulfstream Pilots are only guaranteed their internship after successfully passing all training that is done to the standards set by the Faa, and used by every airline out there. I have seen them pull someone out of training because a problem was identified, and they were offered their money back, however they are also allowed to stay with extra training if they want at no additional expense, but in the end, you fail your type ride twice, you are gone period. We fly an every other leg system just like you, my take off, leg and landing.
When I interned, I made 136 landings in 250 hrs. Most of our flights are 1.4 block or less. Dont assume i sit in the right seat looking out the window.
Rumor: we buy a job
Fact: we pay for an intense training program to 121 standards and a type rating, I will not argue that its cheap it is not, but it does not buy a job. I had to earn my job, after my 250, I had to have letters of recommendation from line captains I flew with, and interview for my job.
Rumor: The 250 hours is paying to fly for free
Fact: The internship is paid, not under the union contract, but paid flying, none the less
The cost of the training is for the training, and 32 hours level D sim training to take a low time pilot to 121 standards, CRM, CPT and a type rating.
Rumor: We stole YOUR job
Fact: All flying at GIA is and has been since day one under a contract that states X percent of the line flying hrs are for the probationary FOs and X percent is for permanent hire FO’s. When you are done with your 250 if you get permanent hire you go on the board , In better times you go right to flying a line be it reserve or hard line, depends on the economy and the available hours that month on the bid list. Right now it on the senority list which means furlough. Weve been called 300 hr wonders buying a job, but we did nothing different that the 300 hour wonders that went straight to AE or others during the hiring boom, just that our guys recognized that if you go directly into training with low hours you aren’t going to be prepared for the firehose that is 121 training. Hence the money we paid someone to work with us and prepare us for it so we were prepared to fly safely, and professionally, when we hit the line for IOE. And yeah we go through the same struggles in OE of learning a new airframe as you.
Like it or not, most (not all for sure, it is still a regional airline) but most of our pilots are happy. Some of our furloughs are sticking it out for better times when they could jump right to Great Lakes or Gojet, but they have no desire to, they like the Florida Flying and the 1900 is a very good aircraft for flying to the Bahamas, we enjoy our jobs.
As far as new interns coming in, most furloughs, myself included don’t have a problem with it, because the hours belong to the academy already, and always have, and 90 percent of the furloughs are guys that finished 250, have earned a job and would be working, if it wernt for the economy cutting back available flying. I’ll stick it out, I happen to like the people I fly with. Like it or not, (and Im sure some will gripe),these are the facts. If you ever jumpseat on us, you will see first hand that our flightcrews are just as professional and safety oriented, trained to the same standards, as you are, and strive to be the best pilots they can be. One other thing, I know first hand that some of our pilots that are furloughed right now received phone calls from the airline/academy to work part time doing office work, even auditing logbooks, so we could at least make some income to wait out the economy, some chose to accept it others didnt, now my question is, did your airline care enough about you to do the same? Dont knock people you dont know, and base your opinions on rumor and congecture, you do yourself and the industry a disservice. Everytime I jumpseat CAL mainline, I have recieved the warmest reception from the pilots, they are true professionals, The only pilots I have ever had speak badly to my face seem to be the [[1000 hr, I was a CFI for 700 hrs and got picked up directly during the hiring boom, so (I"M ENTITLED) RJ types.]] And it really doesnt bother me, its speaks more to their character than mine. I dont feel entitled nor do I really want to fly a jet right now, Im gaining lots of experiance in a smaller plane, and hand flying which I still enjoy, thank you much. I will probably stay till my upgrade, and I would like to pass on some knowledge to a new group someday. Hmm..were more alike than you admit. The only thing Im going to do is continue to be the most professional and best pilot I can be for the rest of my career, whether you like me or not.
Rumor: Gulfstream Pilots pay to ride in the right seat, after taking a checkride in the sim
Fact: Gulfstream Pilots are only guaranteed their internship after successfully passing all training that is done to the standards set by the Faa, and used by every airline out there. I have seen them pull someone out of training because a problem was identified, and they were offered their money back, however they are also allowed to stay with extra training if they want at no additional expense, but in the end, you fail your type ride twice, you are gone period. We fly an every other leg system just like you, my take off, leg and landing.
When I interned, I made 136 landings in 250 hrs. Most of our flights are 1.4 block or less. Dont assume i sit in the right seat looking out the window.
Rumor: we buy a job
Fact: we pay for an intense training program to 121 standards and a type rating, I will not argue that its cheap it is not, but it does not buy a job. I had to earn my job, after my 250, I had to have letters of recommendation from line captains I flew with, and interview for my job.
Rumor: The 250 hours is paying to fly for free
Fact: The internship is paid, not under the union contract, but paid flying, none the less
The cost of the training is for the training, and 32 hours level D sim training to take a low time pilot to 121 standards, CRM, CPT and a type rating.
Rumor: We stole YOUR job
Fact: All flying at GIA is and has been since day one under a contract that states X percent of the line flying hrs are for the probationary FOs and X percent is for permanent hire FO’s. When you are done with your 250 if you get permanent hire you go on the board , In better times you go right to flying a line be it reserve or hard line, depends on the economy and the available hours that month on the bid list. Right now it on the senority list which means furlough. Weve been called 300 hr wonders buying a job, but we did nothing different that the 300 hour wonders that went straight to AE or others during the hiring boom, just that our guys recognized that if you go directly into training with low hours you aren’t going to be prepared for the firehose that is 121 training. Hence the money we paid someone to work with us and prepare us for it so we were prepared to fly safely, and professionally, when we hit the line for IOE. And yeah we go through the same struggles in OE of learning a new airframe as you.
Like it or not, most (not all for sure, it is still a regional airline) but most of our pilots are happy. Some of our furloughs are sticking it out for better times when they could jump right to Great Lakes or Gojet, but they have no desire to, they like the Florida Flying and the 1900 is a very good aircraft for flying to the Bahamas, we enjoy our jobs.
As far as new interns coming in, most furloughs, myself included don’t have a problem with it, because the hours belong to the academy already, and always have, and 90 percent of the furloughs are guys that finished 250, have earned a job and would be working, if it wernt for the economy cutting back available flying. I’ll stick it out, I happen to like the people I fly with. Like it or not, (and Im sure some will gripe),these are the facts. If you ever jumpseat on us, you will see first hand that our flightcrews are just as professional and safety oriented, trained to the same standards, as you are, and strive to be the best pilots they can be. One other thing, I know first hand that some of our pilots that are furloughed right now received phone calls from the airline/academy to work part time doing office work, even auditing logbooks, so we could at least make some income to wait out the economy, some chose to accept it others didnt, now my question is, did your airline care enough about you to do the same? Dont knock people you dont know, and base your opinions on rumor and congecture, you do yourself and the industry a disservice. Everytime I jumpseat CAL mainline, I have recieved the warmest reception from the pilots, they are true professionals, The only pilots I have ever had speak badly to my face seem to be the [[1000 hr, I was a CFI for 700 hrs and got picked up directly during the hiring boom, so (I"M ENTITLED) RJ types.]] And it really doesnt bother me, its speaks more to their character than mine. I dont feel entitled nor do I really want to fly a jet right now, Im gaining lots of experiance in a smaller plane, and hand flying which I still enjoy, thank you much. I will probably stay till my upgrade, and I would like to pass on some knowledge to a new group someday. Hmm..were more alike than you admit. The only thing Im going to do is continue to be the most professional and best pilot I can be for the rest of my career, whether you like me or not.
Update: There may be hope for you. Stop the propagandists/apologists role and admit that paying to work for a horrible company founded by an Eastern scab is not good for you, the profession or anyone else. Get a real flying job that you can be proud of. Then be prepared to answer some very tough questions about how immature and lazy you were to spend daddy's money to play airline pilot, or how stupid you were to spend your own money to do it. (whichever applies to you) Do these things not and your screen name will become painfully apropos. "turboprop forever"
Last edited by Deez340; 02-24-2009 at 04:46 AM.
02-24-2009, 05:45 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 187
Tprop – as others pointed out you seem to be a nice guy who is very logical and down to earth.
I do see your points however, in my view pay-for-training or your so called internship is simply morally wrong. When Sully talked about the degradation of OUR profession that's exactly what he meant.
In other words, in the past our skills meant something and people were willing to pay for those skills. Nowadays however, we have pilots who are willing to pay to work in order to speed up their entry into the industry.
Any businessman or businesswoman would gladly accept people working for free and better yet, people who are willing to pay to work! …so of course they do just that.
You say that you did not take a job from anyone? Well, I guess when the Beech 1900 (is that what you fly? - I'm not sure?) was built it was meant to be a single pilot airplane, right? Oh wait, no there were supposed to be 2 pilots there from the GetGo, right?!
Two pilots who were earning an income; not one pilot babysitting the other so he/she can get enough experience to hopefully be hired by the company once he has 250+ hours of flight time. I don't doubt that you all studied very hard and did well in training. However, to say you did not take jobs from anyone is simply incorrect; that right seat was meant to be occupied by a “crew member” not a “crew member in training” who hopefully after the 250 hours of "internship" might or might not be hired. To imply otherwise is just preposterous.
It's like saying you're having a brain surgery with one doctor who's fully trained while the other might get hired after his/her "250 surgeries-internship” period during which he’ll be poking on peoples’ brains for experience. No way! Once in the cockpit (or the surgery room) you're supposed to be a full crew member, an internship does not count.
Especially a paid internship which is just a way to change the negative connotation people have with pay-to-fly programs. People create or use bogus names to make things sound better all the time. Heck, a few years back I had to translate the term "affirmative action" to my mom into my native language. Couldn't come up with the right word until I looked it up in the dictionary - there it said: "positive discrimination." Now, that doesn't sound good, does it? So let's call it something else, affirmative action sounds much better, right? A different subject but the very same idea, lets rename something people don't like into something they care much less about.
Since when do interns pay for their internships by the way? I did a six months long United internship many moons ago and was paid zero dollars. (the only perk was the possibility, not a guarantee of a future interview once I met their 1,000 turbine pic hiring minimums.)
So they didn’t pay me but I didn’t have to pay anything for it either. If I did, it wouldn't be an internship, now would it?
PS. I hope we can continue this discussion without people getting too personal...
I do see your points however, in my view pay-for-training or your so called internship is simply morally wrong. When Sully talked about the degradation of OUR profession that's exactly what he meant.
In other words, in the past our skills meant something and people were willing to pay for those skills. Nowadays however, we have pilots who are willing to pay to work in order to speed up their entry into the industry.
Any businessman or businesswoman would gladly accept people working for free and better yet, people who are willing to pay to work! …so of course they do just that.
You say that you did not take a job from anyone? Well, I guess when the Beech 1900 (is that what you fly? - I'm not sure?) was built it was meant to be a single pilot airplane, right? Oh wait, no there were supposed to be 2 pilots there from the GetGo, right?!
Two pilots who were earning an income; not one pilot babysitting the other so he/she can get enough experience to hopefully be hired by the company once he has 250+ hours of flight time. I don't doubt that you all studied very hard and did well in training. However, to say you did not take jobs from anyone is simply incorrect; that right seat was meant to be occupied by a “crew member” not a “crew member in training” who hopefully after the 250 hours of "internship" might or might not be hired. To imply otherwise is just preposterous.
It's like saying you're having a brain surgery with one doctor who's fully trained while the other might get hired after his/her "250 surgeries-internship” period during which he’ll be poking on peoples’ brains for experience. No way! Once in the cockpit (or the surgery room) you're supposed to be a full crew member, an internship does not count.
Especially a paid internship which is just a way to change the negative connotation people have with pay-to-fly programs. People create or use bogus names to make things sound better all the time. Heck, a few years back I had to translate the term "affirmative action" to my mom into my native language. Couldn't come up with the right word until I looked it up in the dictionary - there it said: "positive discrimination." Now, that doesn't sound good, does it? So let's call it something else, affirmative action sounds much better, right? A different subject but the very same idea, lets rename something people don't like into something they care much less about.
Since when do interns pay for their internships by the way? I did a six months long United internship many moons ago and was paid zero dollars. (the only perk was the possibility, not a guarantee of a future interview once I met their 1,000 turbine pic hiring minimums.)
So they didn’t pay me but I didn’t have to pay anything for it either. If I did, it wouldn't be an internship, now would it?
PS. I hope we can continue this discussion without people getting too personal...
02-24-2009, 06:59 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: none ya...
Posts: 1,154
Let me be perfectly clear. You and your ilk are a cancer on this profession. If you were to show up to ride my jumpseat I'd be polite and allow you to ride but you'll never have the respect of those who have knowledge of how you got where you are. Furthermore, if I'm once again in a position to select new pilots, you will have zero chance of gracing a Delta cockpit with your presence. Maybe after some serious explaining and contrition but I doubt it. There are just too many fine aviators out there who choose to work hard and pay their dues without resorting to your expensive shortcuts. Yes that most certainly includes the person who lowered themselves to obtain a cfi and instruct for 700hrs whom you seem to have so much disdain for.
Update: There may be hope for you. Stop the propagandists/apologists role and admit that paying to work for a horrible company founded by an Eastern scab is not good for you, the profession or anyone else. Get a real flying job that you can be proud of. Then be prepared to answer some very tough questions about how immature and lazy you were to spend daddy's money to play airline pilot, or how stupid you were to spend your own money to do it. (whichever applies to you) Do these things not and your screen name will become painfully apropos. "turboprop forever"
Update: There may be hope for you. Stop the propagandists/apologists role and admit that paying to work for a horrible company founded by an Eastern scab is not good for you, the profession or anyone else. Get a real flying job that you can be proud of. Then be prepared to answer some very tough questions about how immature and lazy you were to spend daddy's money to play airline pilot, or how stupid you were to spend your own money to do it. (whichever applies to you) Do these things not and your screen name will become painfully apropos. "turboprop forever"
This is why you should have facts before speaking. Sir, I am almost 40yrs old, I worked my butt off 40-60hrs a week in a factory, with a family and mortgage through 3 years of flight training. I spent my own money ( well mine and my wifes..
) to get to where I am. To be frank, my Instructor all those years, thought this route was very good for me to go, and yes he is a captain for a corporate 135 op where I will probably end up some day. He was a better instructor in my eyes because he trained me from day one like I was in an 2 crew aircraft, and he could do this with his experiance. That is what I endevour to do now that I have some experiance to fall back on (121 ops) when I become and instructor. I believe it will definatly make me a better instructor than someone who is there building time on the back of a student simply waiting for the call. I know not all CFI's are like this, but they are out there. I also plan to start volunteering to fly for the CAP, again to give somthing back. I have no problem with people who chose their own destiny, and however you got to where you are, good for you, you got there. I am totally fine with my decisions, to date. Thank you for your input to the conversation.
02-24-2009, 07:35 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,023
So what if, while you were working hard at your factory job a couple years ago, you got laid off because there were people willing to pay your company in order to have your job? What would you think about those people?
02-24-2009, 09:10 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,163
Let me be perfectly clear. You and your ilk are a cancer on this profession. If you were to show up to ride my jumpseat I'd be polite and allow you to ride but you'll never have the respect of those who have knowledge of how you got where you are. Furthermore, if I'm once again in a position to select new pilots, you will have zero chance of gracing a Delta cockpit with your presence. Maybe after some serious explaining and contrition but I doubt it. There are just too many fine aviators out there who choose to work hard and pay their dues without resorting to your expensive shortcuts. Yes that most certainly includes the person who lowered themselves to obtain a cfi and instruct for 700hrs whom you seem to have so much disdain for.
Paying for a job or flying for free in exchange for some turbine-time is wrong, its not cool. This is why companies like Mesa exist. This is why companies force pilots to buy their own type. This is why regionals pay their employees third world wages, why not, there are 1000s willing to do it for less. You are telling companies you are willing to do anything for some turbine-time, and the problem is that they not only screw you, but everyone after you.
02-24-2009, 09:34 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Admiral's club lounge
Posts: 631
I fly for Spirit Airlines and have been in the training department for a little over a year. Being based in Fort Lauderdale, I encounter Gulfstream pilots on a daily basis. My main observation was that they always exhibited a sense of entitlement while training, in the sim, and even when requesting a jumpseat (they can not sit in the cockpit becasue they are not CASS). I also had the pleasure of running into a young Captain (His real initials are B.S) who confronted me and became pseduo aggressive becasue he was not hired by Spirit following an interview. He is just one of many who I see every day. It has always been my belief that you should never pay for training, that will solicit your skills in the process. The company is making money off of you paying for training. You are a required crewmember... Do you realize that?
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