Originally Posted by Flyboyrw

thats a horrible idea.

Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

Tprop – as others pointed out you seem to be a nice guy who is very logical and down to earth.

I do see your points however, in my view pay-for-training or your so called internship is simply morally wrong. When Sully talked about the degradation of OUR profession that's exactly what he meant.

In other words, in the past our skills meant something and people were willing to pay for those skills. Nowadays however, we have pilots who are willing to pay to work in order to speed up their entry into the industry.

Any businessman or businesswoman would gladly accept people working for free and better yet, people who are willing to pay to work! …so of course they do just that.

You say that you did not take a job from anyone? Well, I guess when the Beech 1900 (is that what you fly? - I'm not sure?) was built it was meant to be a single pilot airplane, right? Oh wait, no there were supposed to be 2 pilots there from the GetGo, right?!

Two pilots who were earning an income; not one pilot babysitting the other so he/she can get enough experience to hopefully be hired by the company once he has 250+ hours of flight time. I don't doubt that you all studied very hard and did well in training. However, to say you did not take jobs from anyone is simply incorrect; that right seat was meant to be occupied by a “crew member” not a “crew member in training” who hopefully after the 250 hours of "internship" might or might not be hired. To imply otherwise is just preposterous.

It's like saying you're having a brain surgery with one doctor who's fully trained while the other might get hired after his/her "250 surgeries-internship” period during which he’ll be poking on peoples’ brains for experience. No way! Once in the cockpit (or the surgery room) you're supposed to be a full crew member, an internship does not count.

Especially a paid internship which is just a way to change the negative connotation people have with pay-to-fly programs. People create or use bogus names to make things sound better all the time. Heck, a few years back I had to translate the term "affirmative action" to my mom into my native language. Couldn't come up with the right word until I looked it up in the dictionary - there it said: "positive discrimination." Now, that doesn't sound good, does it? So let's call it something else, affirmative action sounds much better, right? A different subject but the very same idea, lets rename something people don't like into something they care much less about.

Since when do interns pay for their internships by the way? I did a six months long United internship many moons ago and was paid zero dollars. (the only perk was the possibility, not a guarantee of a future interview once I met their 1,000 turbine pic hiring minimums.)

So they didn’t pay me but I didn’t have to pay anything for it either. If I did, it wouldn't be an internship, now would it?



PS. I hope we can continue this discussion without people getting too personal...

Originally Posted by Deez340

Let me be perfectly clear. You and your ilk are a cancer on this profession. If you were to show up to ride my jumpseat I'd be polite and allow you to ride but you'll never have the respect of those who have knowledge of how you got where you are. Furthermore, if I'm once again in a position to select new pilots, you will have zero chance of gracing a Delta cockpit with your presence. Maybe after some serious explaining and contrition but I doubt it. There are just too many fine aviators out there who choose to work hard and pay their dues without resorting to your expensive shortcuts. Yes that most certainly includes the person who lowered themselves to obtain a cfi and instruct for 700hrs whom you seem to have so much disdain for.

Update: There may be hope for you. Stop the propagandists/apologists role and admit that paying to work for a horrible company founded by an Eastern scab is not good for you, the profession or anyone else. Get a real flying job that you can be proud of. Then be prepared to answer some very tough questions about how immature and lazy you were to spend daddy's money to play airline pilot, or how stupid you were to spend your own money to do it. (whichever applies to you) Do these things not and your screen name will become painfully apropos. "turboprop forever"

Originally Posted by rightseater

Actually, the 1900 is certified as a single pilot aircraft....sorry couldn't resist

Originally Posted by UCLAbruins

Great post, defitnely

Paying for a job or flying for free in exchange for some turbine-time is wrong, its not cool. This is why companies like Mesa exist. This is why companies force pilots to buy their own type. This is why regionals pay their employees third world wages, why not, there are 1000s willing to do it for less. You are telling companies you are willing to do anything for some turbine-time, and the problem is that they not only screw you, but everyone after you.

Originally Posted by taylorjets

I fly for Spirit Airlines and have been in the training department for a little over a year. Being based in Fort Lauderdale, I encounter Gulfstream pilots on a daily basis. My main observation was that they always exhibited a sense of entitlement while training, in the sim, and even when requesting a jumpseat (they can not sit in the cockpit becasue they are not CASS). I also had the pleasure of running into a young Captain (His real initials are B.S) who confronted me and became pseduo aggressive becasue he was not hired by Spirit following an interview. He is just one of many who I see every day. It has always been my belief that you should never pay for training, that will solicit your skills in the process. The company is making money off of you paying for training. You are a required crewmember... Do you realize that?

Originally Posted by rightseater

Comair at Lexington...Pinnacle's repo flight, and Colgan at Buf.

Originally Posted by jetracer5

Do you realize just how many gulfstream pilots are at Spirit right? I personally know of about 20.

My main observation was that they always exhibited a sense of entitlement while training, in the sim,

Ummmm..... I thought you worked for Spirit??? Do you hang out at there training center in Fort L. or up at the sim in Denver on your days off or something? Im confused or are you just making things up because you just dont agree with it?

Originally Posted by rightseater

Just to play devil's advocate, Southwest requires everyone to buy a 737 type prior to employment, and I believe they're the highest paid 73 drivers out there...Gulfstream also requires payment for employment, and they are the highest paid 1900 drivers....

Not saying its good, just making an observation