ExperimentalAB

Does anybody here actually fly an approach once in awhile?? Hell I'm lucky if I get to shoot just one good ILS a month...there is no way I'm giving it to the A/P!

KC10 FATboy

Are you kidding?

Do you not fly that much? In my logbook, I break down my landings to ILS, LOC, VOR, NDB, VISUAL, PRM ILS, CATII, CATIII.

On my last rotation, I flew LGA-SRW-BOS-ATL-BNA-ATL-BWI-CVG-SRW-LGA. I flew 1 PRM ILS, 3 ILS, and 3 Visuals. The CA had 1 Visual and 1 ILS.

I'm sure this varies with the seasons and location, but, I have no problem staying proficient. Also, making sure you can use the automation for approaches is something you don't want to forget how to do. As an examiner, I've seen many folks who could fly the ILS like crazy ... but choked when it came to telling George what to do.

johnso29

Yes, flying for NWA I get to fly quite a few ILS approaches.

boilerpilot

Um, why the hell did you continue the approach? You have no idea if the "middle" that you're flying is the actual glideslope, or simply the average of the occilations, which may or may not be anywhere near the actual glideslope. The glideslope going "way down" then "shooting back up" resulting in a "rapid decrease in airspeed" almost resulting in the stickshaker in "solid IMC" requires a go-around, not trying to "to stay in the middle of the dancing glideslope". An ILS is a precision approach, not something thatyou guestimate where the glideslope is. You might end up only 100 feet high when your break out, or you might end up 100 feet low. Either your story doesn't add up, or you're a dangerously unsafe pilot.

texaspilot76

You weren't there, so you don't know all the circumstances. What you don't know is that the weather we encountered wasn't forecast, we didn't have enough fuel for an alternate, plus our aircraft has other means of backing up the ILS. So until you understand all the facts, please keep your criticism to yourself. Save it for your students in your Chickenhawk.

boilerpilot

Uh, yeah, if you read my other posts, you'll find that I DO fly for the airlines, and have for years. Did you not have your reserve fuel? How 'bout contingency fuel? Hold fuel? Like I said at the end of my post, either you're not giving us the full story or you're a dangerous pilot. And I am familiar with the instrumentation on your aircraft, including the white snowflake on an FMS assisted visual. You might as well say that you had a personal GPS out, and that was backing you up. Neither of those, of course, are certified for backing up an ILS, and if you start having G/S occilations, the course of action ISN'T to allow the aircraft to almost get to a stickshaker situation (your words) and then continue on that same ILS. The correct course is to get out and assess your options of going to another airport or using another runway or approach. Do you think I've never encountered unforecasted weather? Or low fuel? Or OTS approaches? The mark of an airline pilot is to be able to safely manage these problems, not how they're able to guess where the glideslope is and miraculously make it to the ground safely. Because for the thousand times that people get lucky and make it down, all it takes is one person applying that power just a little too late, stalling, and becoming prime news coverage for a couple weeks.

Ad hominem attacks against me aren't going to keep me awake at night. A CRJ crashing after following erroneous G/S information and stalling out will. It might turn out just fine, the way it did that time for you, or it might turn out with you being a smoking hole, which is almost certainly what has happened for other people. I tend not to backseat fly, because you're correct when you say that you never know all the factors, but looking at your situation, you shouldn't have continued that approach unless you had already declared an emergency and had no other options. And if you did declare an emergency, you should have noted that in your story.

FlexThrust

You're asking for criticism when you describe an approach which clearly should have been broken off, yet which you continued. AVL is no place to be guestimating the GS. If the weather was unforecast, then it was likely not that widespread, and if you didnt have enough gas for an alternate, then starting the approach in the first place wasnt a a great move. GSP has 2+ miles of very inviting pavement about 15 minutes south of AVL, CLT isnt much further to the east, and TYS is about the same to the west. Starting an ILS knowing that you dont have fuel for an alternate if things dont go well shows a lack of planning well before the glideslope problems...

texaspilot76

The pitch up was caused by the auto pilot chasing the glideslope (which it is programmed to do). I was vigilant, therefore, I remedied the issue prior to a stall occuring. The answer was to disengage the autopilot, hence, the airplane would no longer chase the slope. Once the autopilot was disengaged and aircraft stability restored, the glideslope became stable as well. Again, you were not there. Go read the ASAP report if you desire more details.

Nevertheless, before all the Monday-Morning Captains decided to critique the story, the point of the story is:

Do not become complacent with the autopilot. It does exactly what it is programmed to do; and in some cases, it can cause big problems. It is possible that this is what could have happened to the Colgan flight.

boilerpilot

But wait, in your first story you said:

Which is it? Dancing G/S or stable G/S? I hope you were more consistent on your ASAP.

Like it or not, it's this kind of get-there-itis that results in incidents. Anyways, kudos on being vigilant about the autopilot, no kudos for continuing the approach.

johnso29

Perhaps you should know that one should also not become complacent with the automation. Is it in your company's procedures to check the FMS database before every flight? Are you certain that the database is up to date EVERY time you go fly? Is it really safe to rely on that as your SOLE GS indication? You might have a hard time explaining that one to the NTSB and FAA.

Also, reading through your first post you did not mention anything about the glidslope becoming stable. I also don't believe this investigation is closed yet so perhaps you should follow your own advice, and not arm chair quarter back until you have all the facts.