KC10 FATboy

Sorry, I keep editing my message as I can't type today.

They also said, "This accident had nothing to do with icing."

Of course, this is NOT the final outcome of the NTSB, this was a reporter QUOTING what the NTSB said.

-Fatty

JoeyMeatballs

if this is the case, wait for a MEDIA BLITZ on regional pilots and our experience, or "lack there of"

If this is the case, FATIGUE I would imagine will be a HUGE factor, as well as an investigation of Colgans training department, and expect the FAA to really go all out and start visiting flight decks, and or "observing" checkrides........... this is just the worst possible outcome if it is in fact true........

THIS IS IF what KC-10Fatboy said is true, so if not true just blame him

KC10 FATboy

Pilot Action May Have Led to Crash - WSJ.com

Pilot Action May Have Led to Crash
Flight Data Show Response to Loss of Speed Resulted in Deadly Stall That Downed PlaneArticle

»By J. LYNN LUNSFORD and ANDY PASZTOR

Investigators examining last week's Continental Connection plane crash have gathered evidence that pilot commands -- not a buildup of ice on the wings and tail -- likely initiated the fatal dive of the twin-engine Bombardier Q400 into a neighborhood six miles short of the Buffalo, N.Y., airport, according to people familiar with the situation.

The commuter plane slowed to an unsafe speed as it approached the airport, causing an automatic stall warning, these people said. The pilot pulled back sharply on the plane's controls and added power instead of following the proper procedure of pushing forward to lower the plane's nose to regain speed, they said. He held the controls there, locking the airplane into a deadly stall, they added.

The crash on Feb. 12 at about 10:20 p.m. EST killed all 49 aboard and one person on the ground.

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Reuters
A New York State trooper guides an overhead crane Tuesday to the crash site of Continental Connection Flight 3407 near Buffalo, N.Y.
The investigation is still at an early stage, and National Transportation Safety Board officials have warned about ruling out potential causes or prematurely jumping to conclusions. But in the past few days, government and industry crash experts have gained a better understanding of the sequence of events as they have compared information from the plane's flight recorders with radar and weather data.

Mark Rosenker, the NTSB's acting chairman, said Tuesday that investigators still have "lots of data that needs to be examined," and "still more evidence that needs to be collected," before announcing firm conclusions.

The Q400 was operated by Colgan Air Inc., an unit of Pinnacle Airlines Inc., which was operating the flight on behalf of Continental Airlines Inc. Joe Williams, a spokesman for Pinnacle, declined to comment about details of the accident while the safety board was investigating. A spokeswoman for the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents the pilots, declined to comment.

Investigators initially focused their attention on potential ice buildup on the plane's wings -- a perpetual hazard of aviation. People familiar with the investigation cautioned that they still aren't sure whether icing may have played a contributing role in the crash because it was on the minds of the pilots, but they noted that another Q400 flew through "moderate" icing conditions on the same route from Newark, N.J., to Buffalo the same night, landing without incident less than an hour after the crash.

A Bombardier spokesman said Tuesday that the company is "not aware of any serious icing incident on this aircraft" since it was introduced into service in February 2000.

According to people familiar with the investigation, Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47 years old, who lived outside Tampa, Fla., was at the controls of Flight 3407. The safety board said Mr. Renslow was relatively new to the Q400, which he began flying only in December, when he upgraded from another type of airplane. First Officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, 24, of Seattle, had accumulated 774 hours in the 74-seat aircraft.

The recovered flight data described in detail how the crew of Continental Flight 3407 handled the emergency, the people said.

During the flight from Newark, Mr. Renslow and Ms. Shaw noticed ice building up on the windshield and wings of the airplane after they had already activated the craft's de-icing system, which inflates a series of rubber bladders on the leading edge of the wings and tail surfaces to break up accumulated ice.

According to the plane's flight recorders, Flight 3407's descent into Buffalo was routine until roughly a minute before impact, when the crew lowered the landing gear, followed by the command to extend the wing flaps, which enable the plane to fly at slower speeds.

Almost immediately, these people say, the plane's air speed slowed rapidly, causing a stall-warning device known as a "stick-shaker" to cause the pilots' control column to vibrate. This was followed by a "stick-pusher," which automatically forces the stick forward.

At this point, the captain appears to have pulled back with enough force to overpower the stick-pusher and shoved the throttles to full power, according to people familiar with the matter. Safety board officials said the nose pitched up to a 31-degree angle. Already at a dangerously low speed, the wings immediately stopped generating lift. The plane whipped to the left and then entered a steep right turn, losing 800 feet of altitude in less than five seconds. At one point the right wing was perpendicular to the ground, according to information taken from the flight data recorder.

The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data.

A crash with many similarities occurred five years ago involving a regional jet operated by Pinnacle. Following that crash, which killed the two pilots outside Jefferson City, Mo., the safety board urged Pinnacle and other commuter operations to revamp training procedures, including how to recover from certain types of stalls. Investigators are seeking more information from Pinnacle about how it changed its procedures in the wake of the previous crash, as well as specific details about the training provided for the pilots on Flight 3407.

Pinnacle's Mr. Williams said that following the previous crash, "we continually evaluated our procedures in accordance with our commitment to safety."

—Paulo Prada contributed to this article.

JoeyMeatballs

At this point, the captain appears to have pulled back with enough force to overpower the stick-pusher and shoved the throttles to full power, according to people familiar with the matter. Safety board officials said the nose pitched up to a 31-degree angle. Already at a dangerously low speed, the wings immediately stopped generating lift. The plane whipped to the left and then entered a steep right turn, losing 800 feet of altitude in less than five seconds. At one point the right wing was perpendicular to the ground, according to information taken from the flight data recorder.

The pilots continued to fight with the controls almost all the way to the ground, and in the final moments, "it appeared that they were beginning to make headway when they ran out of altitude," said one person who looked at the data.

If this is from the NTSB, this is a big problem, seems like they did the complete OPPOSITE of what we were all trained to do.

Lets hope this is the WSJ mis-interpretation of what the NTSB said, but if not, this is going to get very ugly

rickair7777

Yup, standby...

tomgoodman

Years ago a crew was blamed for an unrecoverable stall when the airplane pitched up sharply following an engine failure after takeoff. Pilots knew that nobody would intentionally do that, and kept investigating. It turned out that the pilot's seat lock had been improperly repaired, and failed when he stepped on the rudder, taking him and the yoke full aft.

JoeyMeatballs

interesting.......... Thanks

KC10 FATboy

Tomgoodman makes a good point and goes back to what I posted earlier, there still could be more twists to this story before its all said and done. That's why the NTSB will try to exhaust all avenues before they make their final report.

If this report is true, I wonder what actions if any (verbal or physical) did the FO do as the CA pulled up? The report suggests the controls were held nose up during the entire sequence until the last moments.

And, as tomgoodman said referencing another accident, it is just hard to imagine that someone would do this, considering from day one in pilot training you are taught how to recognize and recover from a stall.

FlyJSH

Tom,

Thank you for providing a great example why we need to wait for the final report.

captain152

After everything that has been said ... I'm sure the story will change 4 more times before we hear the final outcome of what really happened. The media is going to have a field day with this until the final story is released. Until then, everytime the story changes they are going to pounce on it and it's going to be hell on earth for the rest of us trying to keep a cool head.

I can only hope that the NTSB comes back with a story different than what they've said now.