New FACTS from NTSB on Colgan 3407
02-16-2009, 04:44 PM
#91
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Yeah but isn't icing supposed to be reported in a certain way? Like turbulence? Although when looking at it this way, I suppose the bumps that a small GA plane felt might be different than the way a commercial airliner feels them, and thus reported differently. Is that what you're trying to say sort of?
02-16-2009, 05:01 PM
#92
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02-16-2009, 05:06 PM
#93
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The severity of icing reports are based on the reporting aircraft type's ability to handle it.
What would be a trace of ice for a 737 would be severe ice for a 152.
If the deicing/anti-icing system can't control or reduce the hazard it than it is severe ice and no aircraft can continue flight in severe ice. If it could it would not be severe it would be moderate.
With that being said we should know that their is no future in loitering in conditions that would be considered moderate for our aircraft.
What would be a trace of ice for a 737 would be severe ice for a 152.
If the deicing/anti-icing system can't control or reduce the hazard it than it is severe ice and no aircraft can continue flight in severe ice. If it could it would not be severe it would be moderate.
With that being said we should know that their is no future in loitering in conditions that would be considered moderate for our aircraft.
02-16-2009, 05:15 PM
#94
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02-16-2009, 05:26 PM
#95
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Icing is one phenomenon that just can't be nailed down. One airplane can go through it and be untouched, meanwhile same type can go through it 20 seconds later and encounter SEVERE icing, very unpredictable...........
02-16-2009, 05:36 PM
#96
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I flew the Q400 as Captain at Horizon Air and know it to be a safe, efficient and wonderful airplane when operated properly by an experienced crew.
The Flight Data recorder recovered from the wreckage of Continental Connection flight 3407 recorded a series of "severe" pitch and roll oscillations that occurred seconds after the flight crew extended 15 degrees of flaps to configure their Bombardier Q400 turboprop for landing. The stall warning and the stick pusher engaged but the aircraft continued to pitch upward to a maximum of 31 degrees followed by a 45-degree dive with a 106-degree right bank. The aircraft turned almost 180 degrees in heading before dropping onto a house in the Buffalo suburb which is near the outer marker for Buffalo Niagara International Airport. The airplane impacted the ground in a near flat attitude, facing in the opposite direction of the runway at Buffalo Niagara International Airport that it was supposed to be approaching.This aircraft attitude upon impact suggests that the aircraft was in a flat spin .
The apparent total loss of aircraft control may have begun with the aerodynamic stalling of horizontal stabilizer tailplanewhich was likely contaminated with ice. An aerodynamic stall of the horizontal stabilizer tailplanecould have been precipitated by a change in airflowover the horizontal stabilizer tailplane when the flaps were extended. This is commonly called Ice Induced Tailplane Stall. Stalling of the horizontal stabilizer tailplane would have likely produced the recorded extreme nose-down pitch change and immediate pitch up may have resulted in a wing stall which would have resulted in extreme rolling. Recovery from this situation would have been unlikely at the low altitude Continental Connection flight 3407 was at when the control upset began.
The Q400's position of the engines high on the wing puts the center of thrust above the center of gravity. This is significant in that increased thrust tends to pitch the nose down which increases the negative angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizer tailplane and could further aggravate a tailplane stall.
02-16-2009, 05:38 PM
#97
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[deleted]
"Theoretical ice thickness:
I = 0.0634 (WDE/p)
W = Liquid Water Content
D = Distance flown in ice
p = density of ice
E = Collection efficiency (This has a lot to do with the size of the object or airfoil, some airfoils are more efficient than others (ie tailplanes) at collecting ice. " Speed is also involved in collection efficiency.
"Theoretical ice thickness:
I = 0.0634 (WDE/p)
W = Liquid Water Content
D = Distance flown in ice
p = density of ice
E = Collection efficiency (This has a lot to do with the size of the object or airfoil, some airfoils are more efficient than others (ie tailplanes) at collecting ice. " Speed is also involved in collection efficiency.
Last edited by MudPupppy; 02-16-2009 at 06:23 PM. Reason: contains a deleted post
02-16-2009, 05:40 PM
#98
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I couldn't agree more with all of you. Even my 3 teenagers who have been around flying with me for most of their life,granted, can pick up on all the errors on these broadcasts. Why don't these Networks simply hire anyone with a Comm or ATP with any common sense to take the public through this. I mean even sports networks have former players commentate on their events. It's true that Aviation is pretty complex to the general public but even watching "Sully" was comforting as he explained flying events in just a way not to say to much but did say enough to get his point across. Maybe they should have him be a consultant. Someone should speak for aviation.
02-16-2009, 05:59 PM
#99
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Posts: 147
I was trying to do that but got shut down by everyone here. I guess they just don't want to help clear the pilots names in this or get the media to report it accurately. It baffles me the ignorance I just experienced. They have now even blocked my PM ability.
It is a shame cause I just wanted to help. I guess people thought I was full of it cause of my user name. This is a user name I have used for years on other forums and just never registered here. Yea, bad timing but that is the call sign I have had for a long time.
I was able to be the spokesmen for all of us pilots to get this straight but instead of helping people here were too focused on if I was a reporter or not. Which I am not. Now thanks to these people more idiots will be on the news talking out of the wrong hole. I will still try to get the right info and get it out properly regardless but it just sucks that there is so much ignorance here. A real black eye on all pilots. Especially the poor souls that passed in the accident. They are sadly the true victims of this ignorance.
Sorry but it is true and to prove it I bet they even delete this reply. I sure hope not!
It is a shame cause I just wanted to help. I guess people thought I was full of it cause of my user name. This is a user name I have used for years on other forums and just never registered here. Yea, bad timing but that is the call sign I have had for a long time.
I was able to be the spokesmen for all of us pilots to get this straight but instead of helping people here were too focused on if I was a reporter or not. Which I am not. Now thanks to these people more idiots will be on the news talking out of the wrong hole. I will still try to get the right info and get it out properly regardless but it just sucks that there is so much ignorance here. A real black eye on all pilots. Especially the poor souls that passed in the accident. They are sadly the true victims of this ignorance.
Sorry but it is true and to prove it I bet they even delete this reply. I sure hope not!
02-16-2009, 06:00 PM
#100
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Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
I was trying to do that but got shut down by everyone here. I guess they just don't want to help clear the pilots names in this or get the media to report it accurately. It baffles me the ignorance I just experienced. They have now even blocked my PM ability.
It is a shame cause I just wanted to help. I guess people thought I was full of it cause of my user name. This is a user name I have used for years on other forums and just never registered here. Yea, bad timing but that is the call sign I have had for a long time.
I was able to be the spokesmen for all of us pilots to get this straight but instead of helping people here were too focused on if I was a reporter or not. Which I am not. Now thanks to these people more idiots will be on the news talking out of the wrong hole. I will still try to get the right info and get it out properly regardless but it just sucks that there is so much ignorance here. A real black eye on all pilots. Especially the poor souls that passed in the accident. They are sadly the true victims of this ignorance.
Sorry but it is true and to prove it I bet they even delete this reply. I sure hope not!
It is a shame cause I just wanted to help. I guess people thought I was full of it cause of my user name. This is a user name I have used for years on other forums and just never registered here. Yea, bad timing but that is the call sign I have had for a long time.
I was able to be the spokesmen for all of us pilots to get this straight but instead of helping people here were too focused on if I was a reporter or not. Which I am not. Now thanks to these people more idiots will be on the news talking out of the wrong hole. I will still try to get the right info and get it out properly regardless but it just sucks that there is so much ignorance here. A real black eye on all pilots. Especially the poor souls that passed in the accident. They are sadly the true victims of this ignorance.
Sorry but it is true and to prove it I bet they even delete this reply. I sure hope not!
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