Mason32

National Seniority List yes... a good idea. The implementation is the problem. The only way it would be voted on and approved is with fences. Anybody currently working as an ALPA pilot can not be displaced by somebody comming into their company off of the national list. Basically, ensure that for all current pilots a national list won't hurt them and it could be an easy sell. 15 to 20 years down the road a national list person still can't displace a person senior to them, or working before the national list... eventually, everybody will be national list, and alot of this fighting between pilot groups will stop... and we can start running the union like the Screen Actors Guild... your airline is hiring.... then you hire ALPA furloughs in seniority order from any airline before hiring off the street... essentially a closed shop.

Now, to answer your question re: MESA. No, wouldn't give them a thing. People spend huge sums of money and tons of time to become airline pilots (in general that is - we all know what was being hired the last 1.5 years) Just a quick 5 minute research of the industry and how/why it works the way it does should tell any person of average intelligence that you do not apply at a subcontractor status company. If these new pilots with SJS can't wait to fly for places like MESA, then why should we expect them to support the union and profession in any other ways. If those places could not get pilots, they would be out of business and the owned companies would grow... simple supply demand, eight o'clock day one. So, to answer your question, NO.

Bond

There in the problem! Pilots at airlines like United and Mesa that are not in the best shape will want to avoid fences, pilots at airlines that are thriving or have career progression will want fences. This will never pass primarily because management teams can get around it with non-union carriers, established or not. My friend nevets apparently thinks that a collective contract is bullet proof, history has demonstrated otherwise. The day when companies can no longer access the provisions of contract while in chapter 11, maybe then and only then will this work. Otherwise, this is not going to be any different than changing the 8 hour rule....

Mason32

along those lines, it is ridiculous that 4 different airlines operate the exact same equipment with four different AOM's and 4 different checklists... all FAA approved of course...
little things like when to start/stop the APU I can see being different at different carriers and things of that nature...

Sniper

Since you're @ Skywest, we'll use Skywest as the example.

How do you tell Skywest what their payscale will be? What if the 'national' CRJ payscale is lower than what Skywest currently has (industry average, I believe, would be a net loss compared to Skywest's current rules and rates)? Skywest won't join ALPA now - why would they do it for a national list?

And, objectively, why should a retiring military pilot get artificial seniority? Did they not choose to fly for the military, in the same way that you choose to fly for Skywest? You applied, got the job, went to training, and, at some point, you may choose to leave. In the same way, that is what a military pilot did, and will do. You fly passengers, they fly cargo and sorties in protection of US government objectives.

I'm all for respecting the patriotism a military pilot, and I agree a separating military pilot is qualified, which is why the market has allowed a pilot, such as this, to compete for jobs with civilian pilots who have generally commanded airline aircraft and crews for years commercially, the exact job they're often applying for. But, objectively, how do you allow this pilot to gain seniority in a system they are not part of?

When you become aircraft commander, you get a #? For some equipment, you have to work your way to aircraft commander. For a single seat fighter, as soon as you solo, you are, by default, commanding an aircraft. What about the helo guys - when do they start their seniority? What about a Lear pilot? Do we not gain a seniority # till we command a fixed wing turbine powered aircraft - so now, if you're a regional FO, you don't have a # yet, but a Caravan pilot does?

How do you force USAPA, APA, SWAPA, and IPA pilots to join? A national list is no good if it doesn't include them, surely. What about all the Teamsters pilots?

Exactly.

To do this, everyone has to join. To do this, you have to give the non-union and non-ALPA carriers incentive to join ALPA. Or you'd have to create a national list that is all encompassing, with ALPA and all the other unions imput. Guess what the main discussion will be? Seniority integration. Tell me about a seniority integration that went well for all parties - just one.

They all created division. Just look @ the 3 that are still talked about regularly on this board - APA and TWA's ALPA pilots - the TWA pilots feel they got screwed, and, ironically, so do the APA pilots. The AWA pilots and the former US ALPA pilots, now USAPA - same thing. Even NW and DL pilots still disagree over how it went down (wait till the shuffling actually happens, and many pilots lose their base and seat for the sparks to fly), and that's the friendliest of the 3 active mergers by far!

You have to convince every union and every non-union carrier that it is in their best interests to join. For Fed Ex, UPS, Southwest, Delta, and American it will likely mean taking a paycut and benefits cut at first (if you want to force Arrow Air and Omni to fly the same contract as UPS and Fed Ex (all operate DC-10's internationally), then you've got to have one rate, and, while it might not be as low as Arrow's and Omni's, it's not going to be as high as UPS's and Fed Ex's - it'll be somewhere in the middle.

Or imagine that GoJets and Trans States have to join the same list - can you imagine a single Trans States CA that is going to go for being junior to a GoJet's CA hired after them?

A national list is in the collective best interests of the whole - but, as individuals, we unfortunately will look at it through the same selfish lens we've looked at everything through. We are our own worst enemy, and will shoot ourselves in the foot here too. Even the best general will be undermined if the soldiers are motivated only by what is best for them as individuals.

Sniper

The best thing to do might be for all pilots who enter the industry @ a union carrier of any kind (IPA, APA, USAPA, ALPA, Teamsters - any others) who have never worked for a union carrier before get a #, based on DOH. With multiple pilots with the same DOH, you go by age to determine seniority. All of the unions get together and establish a base contract right now. Pay would be a base for each pound of weight, and airlines like UPS would take the total weight of all aircraft, divide it by the total # of aircraft, and there's their base. Base pay would be based on longevity within the list, top it out @ 12-15 years for a max. Work rules would be established as industry standard for a base. Benefits would be treated the same, just establish a base. The base goes up with the CPI, no more, no less. Totally cost neutral. Each individual carrier's pilots would have the option to enhance their rates, work rules, and benefits with their own company through collective bargaining, just as long as they don't go below the base.

Eventually, 85% of 'airline' pilots will be on this list, and, at that point, you'll have the national list. To join the list @ that point requires signing a contract where all pilots @ the carrier who do not have a # on the list will be integrated based on DOH @ their company. All pilots joining @ that point will agree to support a national suspension of service strike if called for by the governing council. The Governing council would be done the same as the US government, one body has a representative from each active carrier with pilots on the list, the other is weighted based on # of pilots @ each carrier. There is a president who is voted in by popular vote amongst all the pilots on the list, and they serve 2 terms of 4 years maximum.

For all of us who are currently @ a union carrier or who ever have been, it's too late for us. But in 40 years or so, when we're all gone - then, and only then, can the national be implemented. At that point, the contract that was originally written as base, 40 years ago, is looked at, amended, and that becomes the new 'industry standard'. All non-union carriers currently not participating in the 'national list' are given 1 year to organize a representation structure and to decide to join the list or not (most all non-union carriers such as jetBlue and Skywest already have a representation structure in place, just not a union and a contract). Those pilots will be integrated based on DOH @ their current non-participating carrier if they don't already have a # on the national list. Any carriers founded after that point are contacted 1 year after inception of first revenue flight and offered the opportunity to join the list based on DOH @ their current company if they don't already have a # on the list.

I have no doubt that there will be some non-participating carriers who decide to undercut the list's base rates. But, by being @ a non-participating carrier, you are essentially giving up your ability to ever move on to a participating carrier, b/c each day you spend there is a day of seniority you're not earning on the national list. Hiring @ participating carriers will only be done off the list, based on seniority on the list.

There are many details to be worked out, but, all the major unions have 40 years to work them out. In the mean time, while the list is waiting to be activated, the rest of the structure can be in place - base contract and representation body that really represents all pilots, which will encourage all groups to get together, benefiting all pilots industry wide.

I'm a dreamer, what can I say?

Sniper

. . . . . . . .

purduej

It's a pipe dream, to coordinate that many people especially since many people will take a hit. All those great FedEx and UPS payscales? Gone because we'll have to pay industry average. Southwest? No more great pay because they'll have to move to the middle. And regionals? Forget it. To be a lifer at 10 years and have the possibility of a 12 year furlough from a major bump you down in seniority? That will not go over well.

whiskey72

There in lies the problem. Everyone is too greedy to implement a national scale of any type. Why? It would mean concessions. In this case the highest pay scales would be gone, but, what do we get in return? A level,united and extremely strong playing field. In the end it would be the greater good, yet we can't see past the almighty dollar to gain something good.

I once saw a post on here talking about an "INDUSTRY WIDE CONTRACT". Great idea if that was the lone solution, but the author quickly followed it up with "if your local MEC can achieve more, then so be it." What good does that do? That one statement puts us right back on the same page we are now. Why is it that company A get's a leading contract, company b has to one up them? Company C now fights to better Company B's contract and the vicious cycle continues.

Why can it never be Company A sets the bar, Companies B,C,D etc. bring themselves up to the bar and then we fight as a whole when all of us are on the same contract?????? People until we learn to fight as a whole, we are doing nothing more than fighting ourselves. Management loves this. They don't even have to fight us, we do that just fine by ourselves.

We all have to someday realize we are in this together and we are MOST CERTAINLY our own enemies.

MY .02 for the day!!!

Whiskey

exwaterski

Did anyone else watch the History channel documentary on the WWI Christmas truce? Sort of what this reminds me of. Even if you could put together a fragile coalition it would be very difficult to maintain it. One of the commentators said it is impossible for a collective group of individuals to go against the machinery of war. Sort of an interesting parallel.

maxjet

[quote=rickair7777;521372]Sounds like a good idea, but starting with mesa is not...

After the scorched-earth campaign that OJ has waged across the industry in the last decade (eagerly enabled by 51% of MAG pilots) the idea of honoring their seniority post-liquidation is laughable.

I am always amazed at the level of hate that you still posess for Mesa. As I understand it, you went to Mesa, (should have known better) found out that you didn't like what was going on, left, and as you say it over and over ended up at a far better gig at Skywest. What is it that you have to feel bitter about. Do you really think that you would have gotten hired at Skywest if you hadn't first gotten the training at Mesa? You used to only pick on the YV management but now you condem the pilot group? These are the same guys and gals that treated you with respect and as one of them? I think that you owe the MAG flight crews an apology. Being on my 4th airline in the past 365 days I feel quite fortunate to have worked at Mesa. I truly appreciate what I have as I know how bad that it potentially can be. I also had the privledge of working with a GREAT group of individuals on the line at Mesa. If 51% of the voters voted yes then they had their reasons. Since you have left the group why do you feel that you even should voice an opinion on who or why voted yes or no. I don't wish to fight with you about this. I only want to point out how acrimonious you have become about this issue and hope that you will figure out who you are actually upset with. You will be much happier if you do. Happy Holidays