Originally Posted by Sniper

(Appologies in advance for the length)

People have touched on some of the many issues involved in a National list, but the biggest will be military pilots and hiring standards, IMO.

There is a sense that, if you flew in the military, you don't have to start @ the bottom, but get to start @ 'the bottom of the top'. I'd guess at least 60% of all mainline pilots currently have military flying in their past (Vietnam trained guys are hitting 60 right now, and thus represent the senior and leadership positions of most career carriers). They all had the opportunity to transfer their military experience to the civilian world.

All of this is being worked on @ the fee for departure level, which explains why it hasn't died yet. There aren't more than a handful of fixed wing military pilots @ the regional level. Once the mainline guys get to vote on this, things will really heat up.

I just can't see any way to integrate the military guys in this. If you give a military pilot credit for years served in any manner, you'd have to justify the simple question - "why?" Why should a dues paying member of this union for the last 5-10 years or more allow a slot above them in this union's national seniority list to a pilot who is not even a member of this union? Objectively, there is no reason for allowing a military pilot to have a 'saved' spot in line, any more so than there is for a citizen @ the DMV - when your # is called, you will be served. That you are a race car driver with 2 Indy 500 wins under your belt is no matter, the minivan driver has been here longer, and will be served first.

It is the difference between a job that awarded based on seniority vs. a job that is awarded based on qualifications (merit based). A national seniority list is not based on qualifications, it is based on seniority only. There is no manner to allow for the qualifications of a particular subset of pilots to equate to seniority within an association. So we are thus left with the only solution to be placing retiring military pilots @ the bottom, along with, at times, 300 hr. TT pilots. This will go over like a ton of bricks, considering that most regionals owe their very existence to the mistake of allowing RJ's to not be scoped in to mainline, because, among other reasons, they aren't going to be acceptable as a starting job for a well qualified applicant, such as a retiring military pilot.

Which brings up the issue of HR departments. Even if current pilots had no say in hiring decisions @ their company, a HR department is going to argue, rightfully so, that an association's list cannot replace their hiring decisions. The mainline HR departments are not currently involved in evaluating the pilots who are entering @ the 'bottom' of the national list. Just b/c TSA management feels a pilot is a good fit for their organization doesn't mean US Airways feels the same way. Heck, just b/c US Airways feels a pilot is a good fit doesn't mean Fed Ex will. But, if a Fed Ex CA retires (in 4 years), the next pilot to come to Fed Ex will not be then chosen by Fed Ex HR, but rather by the national list, which likely will bring in a pilot who most assuredly wasn't initially hired by Fed Ex. Assume, somehow, that all HR departments @ all ALPA carriers will go along with this.

There would also have to be fences and 'employer locks'. If the list were activated today based on length of service within the union or original DOH within the union, I imagine more than a handful of guys flying for CommutAir might want to trade their position as a Saranac Lake based FO for that of a Continental FO who has less seniority with the union b/c they were a C-17 driver when the Saranac Lake FO was hired by CommutAir. How do you integrate the current pilots @ ALPA? Should a 12 year Eagle CA be senior to a 11 year Delta CA? If so, what rights does the Eagle CA have to bump the Delta CA out? Imagine the bump and flush that would happen here. Who would pay for all this training?

Is this only applicable for hiring of new pilots @ a company then? IE, the most senior pilot who wants the job gets the interview? What would happen if HR doesn't hire you - do you just go back into the 'pool' of available pilots for the next opening? Should guys on furlough get any priority to job openings vs. pilots who are gainfully employed, but 'senior'? If you're the senior guy in 'the pool' @ United and really want to work for them, how many times does UA HR have to turn you down before you can't apply to them anymore? Do you only get one shot, like Delta's policy, @ each carrier? Who determines this, company HR or ALPA and 'the list'?

What if you scab - do you lose your position on the list? If so, and ALPA decides to readmit you, do you get your old # back?

So, if a list could actually happen, the end result would be that military pilots (and all others with commensurate experience, to include corporate pilots, foreign pilots, charter pilots, and pilots from other unions, as well as non-union pilots) will be snatched up @ every opportunity to be RJ FO's or prop FO's for regionals. For the next 5 years, the experience level in the regionals would be highly skewed, with virtually every regional CA being vastly less qualified than their FO. After that, things would start to even out, and, about 10 years from now, the whole thing would stabilize to some degree. Hiring standards @ the regionals would go up considerably, and the quality of regional contracts might too.

No matter what, though, you'd still have military pilots coming in @ the bottom, thus impacting the decisions of pilots to join the military in the first place. If choosing your initial employer to be Uncle Sam necessitates either attempting to stay in for life (not easy, especially if everyone else is attempting to do the same thing) or giving other pilots a 5 year head-start (it'll take 5 years to get the qualifications for industry entry for non-military pilots, I figure), the quality of pilot candidates for the military may be impacted, thus impacting national security (yes, seriously).

There are so many issues to overcome, and it would require so much long term, strategic thinking that it's virtually doomed from the start. Who's got to do all of this - a bunch of short-sighted, self-centered pilots. Look no further than this board for evidence of this.

In the end, we are our own worst enemy. If ALPA could do this, than they would also be able to call an SOS. Sadly, there's probably just not enough unity amongst us to get this done. Many carriers would vote out ALPA rather than go along with this, destroying the whole point of a national list. Deregulation killed us in more ways than one.

Originally Posted by Nevets

You are assuming that just because you have a seniority number that you automatically have a job. You would only be able to exercise your seniority if and when you have a job and when there is a vacancy. The problem would still be of how to hire pilots and who would be in charge of it. I think that j1b3h0's post is the ultimate solution.

By the way, I personally wouldn't have a problem giving military pilots a seniority number when they become qualified. Or giving a corporate/charter/foreign pilot one when he gets his job only if I could exercise my seniority rights when their positions become available. As for non union pilots, they shouldn't be afforded the privileges of the NSL unless they became members.

Originally Posted by JetJock16

So why would a military pilot, who is non-union, be considered any different than a non-union airline pilot? Military pilots aren’t ALPA, they're not even ALP's……………………………and I’m 100% positive ALPA’s not going to be successful in unionizing our armed forces. Also why should a pilot from an airline that has a union other than ALPA (SWAPA, APA, Teamsters) be considered different than a Military or non-union current "Air Line" pilot? You mentioned……..”I personally wouldn't have a problem giving military pilots a seniority number when they become qualified.” Non-union airline pilots are qualified and both sets of pilots (Military and non-union) aren’t ALPA. No, a NSL can only work if EVERYBODY gets incorporated……period. There must be one list for ALL PILOTS with no discriminating, also one union………………….ALPA. Dave missed a golden opportunity in the 30’s & 40's (also Clancy in the 50's) when ALPA had a perfect relationship with Capitol Hill; instead of creating one seniority list and one nationwide pay scale he opted for the independent stepin' stone approach.

Today, sadly, it will never pass.

BTW, for those who don’t know I’m a strong ALPA supporter, a 35%er at SKW as we like to call ourselves. Why are we left out after all the support and effort we gave to ALPA and the campaign? And if we aren’t then why is the other 65%? That's vindictive, their not "scabs."

1 list, 1 union, 1 pay scale..........1 Voice.......................for ALL ALP's!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Nevets

Call me patriotic but I think if you serve our country as a military pilot, the least that I can do is give them a seniority number when they qualify, even the non-union military pilots. Other than that, I agree 100% that a NSL can only work if everybody gets incorporated, meaning that all non-union pilots have to become union in order to benefit from a NSL.

Originally Posted by JetJock16

I agree. I feel that everyone that serves deserve our respect and gratitude. Don't get me wrong but when it comes to the NSL there should be no discrimination between union and non-union.

1 List, 1 Pay Scale, 1 Union, 1 Unified Powerful Voice........

Originally Posted by Nevets

I agree but you can't be a part of list created by a union unless you are part of that union.

Originally Posted by JetJock16

I understand but the only way an NSL will truly work is if all participate. If one airline is left out then they will undercut the rest. In the end the majority will fold to the few. The same goes for a strike, just ask those from Southern and CAL......etc. Another example is crew compliment; AA pretty must put the nail in the coffin on that one with their separation CBA. ALPA, for the good of all, MUST include all........No exceptions. If some chose to disregard then ALPA must find a legal way to either shut the group down or being them in house. Again, without everyone it will fail.

Originally Posted by JetJock16

Also just as we at SKW must vote ALPA in so do AA, SWA, US, Frontier, RAH, etc. Without all of them there is just way to many loop holes. Even if two held out, say GoJet and US; the system would fail within a few years.

Originally Posted by Nevets

I certainly don't disagree. I thought it would go without saying that with a NSL all airlines would be forced to employ pilots on the list. Of course this is something that would have to be bargained for. But just as many contracts have scope clauses bargained for that dictate that pilots from the current seniority list can do flying for that company. And there is also the ability today in many contracts for anyone who doesn't pay dues to be removed from existing seniority lists. The same would be true of a NSL but on a national scale.

Originally Posted by JetJock16

BTW, for those who don’t know I’m a strong ALPA supporter, a 35%er at SKW as we like to call ourselves. Why are we left out after all the support and effort we gave to ALPA and the campaign? And if we aren’t then why is the other 65%? That's vindictive, their not "scabs."

1 list, 1 union, 1 pay scale..........1 Voice.......................for ALL ALP's!!!!!!!