Colgan Discussion
12-14-2008, 09:34 PM
#71
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 31
This has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've read on a message board in quite some time. Curious, are you a management troll, 'cause it sounds like it....realizing you'd never answer that question truthfully if you were?
Is ALPA perfect? Of course not. But I know of several crews at CJC whose would like nothing better than to have an ALPA attorney supporting them in their recent/ soon to come carpet dance down at the brain-factory (HEF). As it stands right now, if anyone wants legal council around here, they're gonna need to come up w/ about 5 G's of their own money for a private attorney. Not good!
We need representation........yesterday. You'll never know exactly how much you need it until it's too late when it's not available. So, take your fear-mongering posts elsewhere, kc.....'cause I'm not buying it
...and neither are the MAJORITY of the pilot group (IMO....we'll know for certain in 3 days).
Is ALPA perfect? Of course not. But I know of several crews at CJC whose would like nothing better than to have an ALPA attorney supporting them in their recent/ soon to come carpet dance down at the brain-factory (HEF). As it stands right now, if anyone wants legal council around here, they're gonna need to come up w/ about 5 G's of their own money for a private attorney. Not good!
We need representation........yesterday. You'll never know exactly how much you need it until it's too late when it's not available. So, take your fear-mongering posts elsewhere, kc.....'cause I'm not buying it
...and neither are the MAJORITY of the pilot group (IMO....we'll know for certain in 3 days).5000 of your own money? if you did nothing wrong, you should be able to recover that in litigation. you will have to do the dance with or without the union.
you probably will win the vote, but i am telling you now, the employees will be the loser
12-14-2008, 09:51 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Capt
Posts: 3,215
Hi!
kycycles: No, foreign auto makers aren't asking for money from the US Whitehouse, they are getting $ or asking for $ from their OWN governments. Plus, NONE of them have to pay ANY healthcare costs for their workers or retirees, because ALL of those countries have nationalized health care.
cliff
YIP
kycycles: No, foreign auto makers aren't asking for money from the US Whitehouse, they are getting $ or asking for $ from their OWN governments. Plus, NONE of them have to pay ANY healthcare costs for their workers or retirees, because ALL of those countries have nationalized health care.
cliff
YIP
12-14-2008, 09:59 PM
#73
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 31
that's a mis-perception. how does their supposed national health care take care of all the u.s. employees. i know many people that work at some of the many foreign automaker plants here in the u.s. they all have health care.
besides, who says the employer should be responsible for health care. that is a benifit not a right. i have been paying for my own health care for years now. works fine for me.
the era of entitlements is coming to an end. people need to be responsible for themselves. they need to realize that anything a company offers is a benefit not a right. be grateful cause if you push this to far, you will be on the street in tough times.
besides, who says the employer should be responsible for health care. that is a benifit not a right. i have been paying for my own health care for years now. works fine for me.
the era of entitlements is coming to an end. people need to be responsible for themselves. they need to realize that anything a company offers is a benefit not a right. be grateful cause if you push this to far, you will be on the street in tough times.
12-14-2008, 09:59 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 152
I will say this, and let it be my last.
If I was treated so poorly and had such a strong feeling of regret over my employment decision that I felt I needed to lie down instead of stand up for myself and my fellow pilots, I absolutely would not defend that same management. I would use valid anti-union arguements, with specific examples, not vague analogies without substance. I would not spend my time on pilot forums, an avenue for current and future pilots. The negative posts are so transparent, they are in fact arguements for a union. It is sad that people are completely uniformed, we need to be sure we overcome this attitude of cowardness. If one were to fully understand the need for a union, it would be obvious finances were not the only benefit. Who's to say a group does not deserve better? How can there be change if there is no group that is willing to be first and stand up for what is right? Unfortunately, there will always be those lost few, we need to focus on those that are willing to understand and fight for what is deserve.
If I was treated so poorly and had such a strong feeling of regret over my employment decision that I felt I needed to lie down instead of stand up for myself and my fellow pilots, I absolutely would not defend that same management. I would use valid anti-union arguements, with specific examples, not vague analogies without substance. I would not spend my time on pilot forums, an avenue for current and future pilots. The negative posts are so transparent, they are in fact arguements for a union. It is sad that people are completely uniformed, we need to be sure we overcome this attitude of cowardness. If one were to fully understand the need for a union, it would be obvious finances were not the only benefit. Who's to say a group does not deserve better? How can there be change if there is no group that is willing to be first and stand up for what is right? Unfortunately, there will always be those lost few, we need to focus on those that are willing to understand and fight for what is deserve.
12-14-2008, 10:06 PM
#75
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 31
I will say this, and let it be my last.
If I was treated so poorly and had such a strong feeling of regret over my employment decision that I felt I needed to lie down instead of stand up for myself and my fellow pilots, I absolutely would not defend that same management. I would use valid anti-union arguements, with specific examples, not vague analogies without substance. I would not spend my time on pilot forums, an avenue for current and future pilots. The negative posts are so transparent, they are in fact arguements for a union. It is sad that people are completely uniformed, we need to be sure we overcome this attitude of cowardness. If one were to fully understand the need for a union, it would be obvious finances were not the only benefit. Who's to say a group does not deserve better? How can there be change if there is no group that is willing to be first and stand up for what is right? Unfortunately, there will always be those lost few, we need to focus on those that are willing to understand and fight for what is deserve.
If I was treated so poorly and had such a strong feeling of regret over my employment decision that I felt I needed to lie down instead of stand up for myself and my fellow pilots, I absolutely would not defend that same management. I would use valid anti-union arguements, with specific examples, not vague analogies without substance. I would not spend my time on pilot forums, an avenue for current and future pilots. The negative posts are so transparent, they are in fact arguements for a union. It is sad that people are completely uniformed, we need to be sure we overcome this attitude of cowardness. If one were to fully understand the need for a union, it would be obvious finances were not the only benefit. Who's to say a group does not deserve better? How can there be change if there is no group that is willing to be first and stand up for what is right? Unfortunately, there will always be those lost few, we need to focus on those that are willing to understand and fight for what is deserve.
again...i will say there are other ways to get what you want. unions will harm colgan jobs. once they are in it is extremely difficult to get rid of them.
be clear....i am a current pilot, former clogan pilot. despite my problems with colgan, i would not ever vote for a union. especially in these difficult economic times.
if you dont like your job then leave!!!!!!
12-14-2008, 10:07 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
you are right..poor management allowed the unions to force crazy wages, twice the competition in fact. because they were afraid....its called extortion.
everyone that got hired on at colgan knew what the pay was going to be, why are you complaining now? like i said, any job is better than no job...keep that in mind. these jobs do not belong to you, they belong to colgan. if you do not like it then leave. the industry will dictate the pay and the standards. find another career if you dont like it. thats what i did. when did the people start thinking that they can control the employer. keep this up and the there will be foreign competition in here taking over the airlines just like they are the auto industry. there was a time and place for the unions, and now is not the time. they have overstayed their welcome and they are playing a major part in the failure of the auto industry, and many other industries as well(the steel industy as an example) this is a global economy, and america will loose the fight if the unions are involved. there are other ways to get what you want...the unions are not it.
everyone that got hired on at colgan knew what the pay was going to be, why are you complaining now? like i said, any job is better than no job...keep that in mind. these jobs do not belong to you, they belong to colgan. if you do not like it then leave. the industry will dictate the pay and the standards. find another career if you dont like it. thats what i did. when did the people start thinking that they can control the employer. keep this up and the there will be foreign competition in here taking over the airlines just like they are the auto industry. there was a time and place for the unions, and now is not the time. they have overstayed their welcome and they are playing a major part in the failure of the auto industry, and many other industries as well(the steel industy as an example) this is a global economy, and america will loose the fight if the unions are involved. there are other ways to get what you want...the unions are not it.
I dont like it, and I'm not going to leave. I have a right to make my working conditions better for myself. There is a huge difference between trying to "control your employer" and protecting yourself from your employer. This isn't some kind of mom and pop store, it's strictly business. Just because there are federal laws doesn't mean Colgan always follows them. Yes, I knew what the pay was before getting on with Colgan, and that's not why I'm complaining. My main support for a union has never been about a pay raise. You don't even work at Colgan anymore, so I'm not going to waste my time why we at Colgan need a union right now.
Anyone who says unions are bad for business only need to look at Southwest. They have consistently made a profit while providing their unionized workforce relatively high wages. Why? Because their management has made sound decisions, and they offer a competitive product, and do a good job of selling it.
What did the Big 3 do? It's been well known for YEARS that fuel is a limited resource... yet they didn't make more fuel efficient cars. The foreign competition has been inching their way in for YEARS... yet they didn't improve their own products to be more competitive in return. Their reputation suffered and so did their sales. Those CEOs get paid TENS OF MILLIONS to make decisions for their companies... and when their companies can't sell a crappy car, now it's the fault of line employees?
You say you left and if that makes you happy, good for you. Since this is really none of your business any more and doesn't affect you in the slightest, why even linger on this thread?
12-14-2008, 10:13 PM
#77
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 31
in my experience... the people that wanted unions the most were the most incompetent. it always seems that the people that were always screwing up were the ones that were made examples of for the union argument.
colgan has internal representation that has done a very good job in the past, in my opinion. that is a perfect example of how things can be accomplished without unions. dont let the misperception of big money and power that the unions say they have fool you. it is an intimidation factor and extortion. it is not healthy for business.
colgan has internal representation that has done a very good job in the past, in my opinion. that is a perfect example of how things can be accomplished without unions. dont let the misperception of big money and power that the unions say they have fool you. it is an intimidation factor and extortion. it is not healthy for business.
12-14-2008, 10:17 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
By the way, do you know of the roll trim issue a few months back where even the FOs were suspended? This suspension will stay on their records for the rest of their lives, following their careers wherever they go (or can't go, thanks to this tarnished record.) Tell me, what does the FO have to do the trim test? Are we required to do it? Ever? Are we required to supervise the captain while he does it? Why did those FOs get suspended?
12-14-2008, 10:21 PM
#79
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 31
Are the Big 3 not making money because they're paying out too much in wages, or because people aren't buying enough of their inferior products (and haven't been for the past many years)?
I dont like it, and I'm not going to leave. I have a right to make my working conditions better for myself. There is a huge difference between trying to "control your employer" and protecting yourself from your employer. This isn't some kind of mom and pop store, it's strictly business. Just because there are federal laws doesn't mean Colgan always follows them. Yes, I knew what the pay was before getting on with Colgan, and that's not why I'm complaining. My main support for a union has never been about a pay raise. You don't even work at Colgan anymore, so I'm not going to waste my time why we at Colgan need a union right now.
Anyone who says unions are bad for business only need to look at Southwest. They have consistently made a profit while providing their unionized workforce relatively high wages. Why? Because their management has made sound decisions, and they offer a competitive product, and do a good job of selling it.
What did the Big 3 do? It's been well known for YEARS that fuel is a limited resource... yet they didn't make more fuel efficient cars. The foreign competition has been inching their way in for YEARS... yet they didn't improve their own products to be more competitive in return. Their reputation suffered and so did their sales. Those CEOs get paid TENS OF MILLIONS to make decisions for their companies... and when their companies can't sell a crappy car, now it's the fault of line employees?
You say you left and if that makes you happy, good for you. Since this is really none of your business any more and doesn't affect you in the slightest, why even linger on this thread?
I dont like it, and I'm not going to leave. I have a right to make my working conditions better for myself. There is a huge difference between trying to "control your employer" and protecting yourself from your employer. This isn't some kind of mom and pop store, it's strictly business. Just because there are federal laws doesn't mean Colgan always follows them. Yes, I knew what the pay was before getting on with Colgan, and that's not why I'm complaining. My main support for a union has never been about a pay raise. You don't even work at Colgan anymore, so I'm not going to waste my time why we at Colgan need a union right now.
Anyone who says unions are bad for business only need to look at Southwest. They have consistently made a profit while providing their unionized workforce relatively high wages. Why? Because their management has made sound decisions, and they offer a competitive product, and do a good job of selling it.
What did the Big 3 do? It's been well known for YEARS that fuel is a limited resource... yet they didn't make more fuel efficient cars. The foreign competition has been inching their way in for YEARS... yet they didn't improve their own products to be more competitive in return. Their reputation suffered and so did their sales. Those CEOs get paid TENS OF MILLIONS to make decisions for their companies... and when their companies can't sell a crappy car, now it's the fault of line employees?
You say you left and if that makes you happy, good for you. Since this is really none of your business any more and doesn't affect you in the slightest, why even linger on this thread?
the big 3 are suffering the same losses as the foreign automaker. almost exactly the same numbers as a matter of fact. the difference is, the foreign auto maker employees are loving the fact that there 40 dollar an hour job is a whole lot more secure than the 80 dollar an hour job at the big 3.
poor management is right. it would be a poor decision on colgans part to let the unions in.
i am in this conversation because i am looking out for my fellow pilot, as i am still associated with many people that work there.
again...the unions priority is higher pay.... labor costs are the number one cost of doing business. this is a horrible economy. people are not flying, the market does not support higher pay for this.
12-14-2008, 10:23 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Student Pilot
Posts: 849
in my experience... the people that wanted unions the most were the most incompetent. it always seems that the people that were always screwing up were the ones that were made examples of for the union argument.
colgan has internal representation that has done a very good job in the past, in my opinion. that is a perfect example of how things can be accomplished without unions. dont let the misperception of big money and power that the unions say they have fool you. it is an intimidation factor and extortion. it is not healthy for business.
colgan has internal representation that has done a very good job in the past, in my opinion. that is a perfect example of how things can be accomplished without unions. dont let the misperception of big money and power that the unions say they have fool you. it is an intimidation factor and extortion. it is not healthy for business.
you are simply flamebait, arent you?
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