SIC type rating
08-12-2008, 09:42 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 767 Cap
Posts: 1,306
Read my previous post. At my previous carrier we were trained AND checked to circle at the circling mins. And I know were not the ONLY operator at that time to do so. So like I said, the type rating issued carried NO restriction. Also, in my previous post. Later, we were no longer trained nor authorized to execute a circle unless the WX was 1000/3 on jet equipment. And like I said, NO, a new type rating was not issued stating such. Just a revision to the FOM/FSM (what we call the CFM at XJT) stating such.
If you want to argue, at least give me the courtesy of reading what I wrote previously. And like I said, next time you are in the school house, ask an instructor and see what answer you get.
If you want to argue, at least give me the courtesy of reading what I wrote previously. And like I said, next time you are in the school house, ask an instructor and see what answer you get.
I gotta pretty much agree with what dojetdriver said. It's all about what training was conducted. If the airline needs to go into places that have circling approaches and has simulator training in circling, then circling to minimums will be on the Ops Specs. Type Rating rides that include circling to minimums will not have a VMC restriction.
At my last employer, a 727 Charter outfit, we went into lots of little airports and got trained in circling approaches. My Type ride had a circle to minimums and my rating has no restriction. Pilots at that company were allowed to circle to published minimums.
My current employer does not do circling approach training in the sim. It is not included on rating or check rides, and any new Type Ratings issued include the "VMC Only" restriction. If we circle, it can only be to 1000/3 or published mins if they're higher.
Just for grins, I have included the relevant section from our Ops Specs.
C075. Category I IFR Landing Minimums - Circle-to-Land Approach Maneuver
The certificate holder is authorized Category (CAT) I IFR landing minimums for circle-to-land approach
maneuvers in accordance with the limitations and provisions of this operations specification.
a. The lowest authorized IFR landing minimum for instrument approaches, which require a circle-to-land
maneuver to the runway of intended landing, shall be determined for a particular aircraft by using the
speed category appropriate to the highest speed used during the circle-to-land maneuver.
b. Aircraft operating under IFR during all circle-to-land maneuvers are required to remain clear of
clouds. If visual reference to the airport is lost while conducting a circle-to-land maneuver the missed
approach procedure specified for the applicable instrument approach must be followed, unless an
alternate missed approach procedure is specified by ATC.
c. All Certificate Holders- Training and Checking Provided. If the certificate holder provides training
and checking the following subparagraphs c(1) through c(3) apply.
(1) The certificate holder shall use the highest of the following landing minimums for an instrument
approach that requires a circle-to-land maneuver to align the aircraft with the runway of intended
landing when a straight-in landing from an instrument approach is not possible or is not desirable:
(a) The circling landing minimum specified by the applicable instrument approach procedure, or
(b) A landing minimum specified in the following table.
Speed Category HAA Visibility in Statute Miles
Less than 91 kts 350’ 1
91 to 120 kts 450’ 1
121 to 140 kts 450’ 1½
141 to 165 kts 550’ 2
Above 165 kts 1000’ 3
(2) The certificate holder shall conduct authorized circle-to-land maneuvers using only pilots who:
(a) Are not required by a pilot certificate restriction to conduct circling approaches in VMC
conditions only; and,
(b) Have successfully completed an approved training program (if required) and a proficiency
check for the circle-to-land maneuver. The training program must specifically include the
circle-to-land maneuver. Satisfactory completion of an Advanced Qualification
Program (AQP) validation of the circle-to-land maneuver satisfies this requirement.
(3) The certificate holder is authorized to use the following aircraft to conduct circle-to-land
maneuvers when training and checking are provided (if none are authorized, enter N/A):
Table 1
Aircraft Make/Model/Series
N/A
d. Part 121 Certificate Holders Only- When Pilot Flight Training and Flight Checking Are NOT
Provided. The Part 121 certificate holder is authorized to conduct a circle-to-land maneuver without
providing pilot training and checking. The following subparagraphs d(1) through d(3) shall apply:
(1) The Part 121 certificate holder is authorized to conduct a circle-to-land maneuver without
providing pilot training and checking when:
(a) The reported ceiling is at least 1,000 feet and the visibility is at least 3 statute miles; or
(b) The reported weather is at least equal to the charted circling landing minimums for the
approach to be used, whichever is higher.
(2) When pilot training and checking are not provided, the Part 121 certificate holder shall use a
Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA) of 1,000 feet (HAA) or the MDA of the charted circling
landing minimums for the approach to be used, whichever is higher.
(3) The Part 121 certificate holder is authorized to use the following aircraft to conduct circle-to-land
maneuvers without providing pilot training and checking (if none are authorized, enter N/A):
Table 2
Aircraft Make/Model/Series
A-300-B4605R, A-300-B4622, A-300-B4622R, A-300-F4605R, A-310-203,
A-310-222, A-310-304, A-310-324
B-727-225, B-727-227, B-727-232, B-727-233, B-727-247, B-727-277, B-727-2D4, B-727-2S2F
DC-10-10F, DC-10-30F
MD-11F, MD-10-10F, MD-10-30F
So there is the word from on high with regards to circling approaches by Part 121 operators. It should be in Section C075 of any 121 operators Ops Specs. Any restrictions in your flight ops manuals derive from there. Notice that in section c (1) (a), the Feds make note of the "VMC conditions only" restrictions. While some could argue that "VFR" is a more appropriate term, arguing with the FAA is like banging your head into a wall.
08-13-2008, 06:42 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 1,114
08-13-2008, 09:05 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: FO
Posts: 214
In regards to the "VMC only" restriction, this has always confused me as well. You can't circle unless you keep the runway in sight throughout the whole manuever, so that seems redundant. I believe it should say "VFR only".
08-13-2008, 11:32 AM
#48
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
If the 121 operator defines VMC as being 1000/3, you know, VFR, then VMC complies with the 'minima" as it's outlaid by the FAA's defintion. I don't have the CFM/FOM handy as I'm at home so I can't readily look up how XJT defines it. But some OTHER airlines, and I'm guessing for a reason, use VMC to indicate VFR. Hence, the FAA using that specific wording on the type since it was obtained under a SPECIFIC operator's training program.
Yeah, probably futile but it would make more sense.
08-13-2008, 11:53 AM
#49
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,390
It says "VMC Only" vice "VFR Only" because you can execute a circling approach at the termination of an IAP after breaking out into the specified conditions...in the 121 world, all of that is normally done under an IFR flight plan, right?
If it said "VFR Only", you would have to break out into VFR conditions, cancel IFR, then proceed with a non-IFR visual approach...kind of ridiculous. Actually if you were to do all that, and then lose the field or end up IMC, ridiculous would be an understatement.
Remember VFR vs. VMC from private pilots days?
If it said "VFR Only", you would have to break out into VFR conditions, cancel IFR, then proceed with a non-IFR visual approach...kind of ridiculous. Actually if you were to do all that, and then lose the field or end up IMC, ridiculous would be an understatement.
Remember VFR vs. VMC from private pilots days?
08-13-2008, 12:01 PM
#50
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
It says "VMC Only" vice "VFR Only" because you can execute a circling approach at the termination of an IAP after breaking out into the specified conditions...in the 121 world, all of that is normally done under an IFR flight plan, right?
If it said "VFR Only", you would have to break out into VFR conditions, cancel IFR, then proceed with a non-IFR visual approach...kind of ridiculous. Actually if you were to do all that, and then lose the field or end up IMC, ridiculous would be an understatement.
Remember VFR vs. VMC from private pilots days?
If it said "VFR Only", you would have to break out into VFR conditions, cancel IFR, then proceed with a non-IFR visual approach...kind of ridiculous. Actually if you were to do all that, and then lose the field or end up IMC, ridiculous would be an understatement.
Remember VFR vs. VMC from private pilots days?
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