RyanP

Neither is safe. Compass or anyone else doing it either. I'm not talking about guys who went over there with 3-4k 121 time. I'm talking about the large number of min time, newbie 1000hrs 121 pilots who came from being a CFI types out in the system now.. they are still clueless. There may be a small handfull that aren't that bad but most of them don't know crap yet. You and the rest of them are just too dumb and inexperienced to realize it until years later when you look back at when you were that low time. That's when you can finally start to see how little you knew. Ask anyone flying 8-10 years+ 121 if they were really ready at that low time.. Most know damn well they weren't and will admit it. Same for me. I look back to my first and second years and can see now that I didn't know crap back then. I could memorize and pass a type ride like everyone else but real world experience was zip. So many times I was grateful to have an experienced guy in the left seat to learn how he handled problems.. Because for me It would've just been a guess and winging it back then. I still learn new stuff and add more tools and experience every day now.

I flew with brand new first year FO's last year that left and went on to Upgrade at Compass and PSA. A group of us CA's just had this discussion last week. It's scary because Me and the other people that flew with them know for a fact they don't know what the hell they are doing yet and really need to be supervised still. That's why we still fill out their probie reports every trip for the first year and a lot of the time we are teaching still. They can fly the plane "ok" but the whole package hasn't developed yet. Even stuff like high x-wind, bad weather landings are still white knuckled and sketchy a lot of times at this point, they get all flustered after pulling off the runway and can't even talk to ground if it was really nasty coming in.. and they are the CA now? That scares me. I've ridden in a Compass jumpseat with a new upgrade and was just thinking how screwed up this flight was.. Neither of them knew what was going on. Then we had to hold and that was messed up and entered wrong. I had to tell them.

The 1-2 yr people pretty much always still struggle with anything out of the ordinary, they are like a deer in headlights for the most part when stuff goes wrong or they see something new happen for the first time. Some are better than others but I've noticed it takes most people about 3 years before they start to really "get it", the mistakes go way down, and they can anticipate problems or even catch the CA mistakes before they happen. The other scary part is knowing these companies have 2 people together with no experience to back each other up. Who catches the mistakes? At least that's one good thing about Eagle out of all our negatives. At least one of the guys flying has at least 5,000 -15,0000+ 121 hours and a lot of experience to draw from. Most of the FO's have 3-6k hours as well. I didn't think it was a big deal either when I was new. I wanted to upgrade ASAP. You don't realize it until years later you didn't know anything yet.

It's rare to fly with a guy with low time that you don't have to keep an eye on for constant little mistakes, FMS mistakes, departure mistakes, clearance mistakes, judgement mistakes, visual approach mistakes etc.. Everyone makes mistakes no matter how experienced, but they definitely make a lot more. Anyone who has a good amount of time in the left seat knows exactly what I'm talking about. Because every CA I talk with about it says the same things regardless of which airline we work for.

Anyone that thinks 1000 hrs is enough to be a safe and knowledgable 121 CA you would trust your own family with in an emergency situation with bad weather and everything else going wrong is the one who is a moron. Passing a type ride and checking the boxes doesn't mean anything. A trained high school kid who flies flight sim could pass a type ride and memorize oral questions. This low time CA stuff is just an accident waiting to happen. Luckily at least these newer glass cockpit automated jets are much easier to operate than the Turboprops many of us started in.

pagey

Pretty thoughtful and accurate post for the most part. So why single out PSA?

How many hours 121 is safe? If not 1000, is it 2? 3? The truth is it's different for each individual. For some 1000 is more than enough, For some probably not. Others may have 5k+ in large corporate jets, some might have done single pilot night IFR for years in an old ass turboprop. 121 is not the most challenging environment.

But hey, PSA has a low upgrade time so they must be unsafe.

Lvlng4Spd

It's only scary to those that aren't part of the movement. I felt very prepared to be a captain and I had prior leadership experience. Many of the FOs I fly with have more experience overall than I do...I draw from that too. and welcome their input. To say that I'm going to be a CNN headline is a bit extreme.

emb145

Don't discount his comment. The Cuj is like the Yoda of these forums. All knowing and just brimming over with massive amounts of information.

Master Cuj, please, train me how to be a union leader and an airline pilot.

billyho

He is correct however in many ways. The problem isn't having a bunch of newbies in the Cockpit it's how the newbies will eventually get paired up.
It took me 5 years to upgrade at Piedmont and most of that time was flying with Captains that had 15-25 years experience which allows for much learning (unless the guys a dick weed and we had a few like all airlines you know the type). Being an FO for 5 years allowed me to see many more situations that I wouldn't have seen as a 1 year FO then going to upgrade. Many of these Captains taught me the limitations of the plane but also knowing what your own limitations were. Mx, Wx, dealing with a very high workload situation in the cockpit makes your transition into the left seat much easier.
Now by the time I upgraded I was able to transfer much of my knowledge to the guy in the right seat but at the same time I was usually flying with an experience FO. Now let me tell you as a newly minted Captain there's nothing better and more of a relief then having a guy in the right seat that's been with the company a few years.
So the problem will occur when a 1 year Captain get's paired with a newhire FO. Because both of you are still trying to find your place and both of you will probably have more tunnel vision and more focus instead of seeing the big picture. That's where I see the problems and that's where you'll see ASAP reports going thru the roof.
At the same time that's where the industry is right now. It's a wait and see game.

Cujo665

Much anger in you.

Remember your training; save you it can.

CaptYoda

Is there an age limit for the flow through to AA? If you retire at PDT do you get to keep AA travel benefits?

flyviper

No age limit to flow, and retiree from pdt gets AA travel benefits.

CaptYoda

Thanks for the info. Assuming the flow period changes to much higher than 6 years (likely) some of us older guys may be looking at 60+ before flowing. At that pont it may be better just to stay at PDT unless there is some major pay or other benefit to flowing. Are many at PDT chosing not to flow (older, senior guys)?

dash8

no there isn't
yes, if you meet the points requirement to qualify for retirement travel (age plus years of service has to be 65)