XJT management refused to placate CAL
05-26-2008, 06:04 PM
#31
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Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
I don't agree. Indy had more issues than CASM or fuel. They were going head to head with UAL with their WHOLE operation. XJT would be making money if it was paying for fuel what Indy was paying.
Also, XJT was already "independent" and operating the Branded when SKW came into the picture. It was all a ploy by CAL to get the savings from XJT one way or another. There is not going to be a buyout with what SKW has offered anyway so the question between SKW and Mesa is irrelevant.
Like I said, there are similarities as well but that still doesn't make the comparison a fair one. What you pointed out just makes my case even stronger.
Also, XJT was already "independent" and operating the Branded when SKW came into the picture. It was all a ploy by CAL to get the savings from XJT one way or another. There is not going to be a buyout with what SKW has offered anyway so the question between SKW and Mesa is irrelevant.
Like I said, there are similarities as well but that still doesn't make the comparison a fair one. What you pointed out just makes my case even stronger.
05-26-2008, 06:06 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: retired
Posts: 645
I'm sure the airbus seats were more comfortable....
05-26-2008, 06:35 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B767 FO
Posts: 423
Nevet...You bring some very valid points to what you say and I haven't been there in 3 years, so I don't know what has gone on. I agree with you some, disagree with you on others. What I am trying to say is You blame Kellner/CAL for ExpressJets problems. Ream came from CAL Micronesia. When the sold the stock, several of the top guys at CAL, Ream too, took stock, which would be normal ops in business. But when they IPOed us and you listened to them and looked at the IPO, it gave us a little hope, but if you really took a hard look at it, the place would never make it no matter what because it was too tied to CAL. You are frustrated with Kellner/CAL. I can understand that, and admire your loyalty to the company, I really do. But, in my opinion, Ream isn't that much better. He took a division of CAL and ran it as an "independent company", as you said, it never was truely its own company. It was a sucess because of CAL and the CPA, it was able to do Branded flying and Charters because of CAL, and because of CAL it is dying. It can't live with or without CAL.
Like I said, I have been gone. I never personally trusted Ream all the way, never could by off on what he sold. As far as Kellner and CAL. I think it is a crime that he was part of the "Go Forward Plan" and the pilots have the contract that they have. But the industry has changed so much since 911 and with the Oil, and it is going to get worse. At my company, they are not too optimistic about the economy through Christmas 2009. I really think that CAL is one of the best to whether the storm, but all of us should be greatly concerned. I am.
ExpressJet accomplished has accomplished much more than I ever thought with the IPO, but I have always held that it wouldn't have done that without CAL.
I really hope for the best for all of the ExpressJet folks, I really do, you are really a great group of people.
Like I said, I have been gone. I never personally trusted Ream all the way, never could by off on what he sold. As far as Kellner and CAL. I think it is a crime that he was part of the "Go Forward Plan" and the pilots have the contract that they have. But the industry has changed so much since 911 and with the Oil, and it is going to get worse. At my company, they are not too optimistic about the economy through Christmas 2009. I really think that CAL is one of the best to whether the storm, but all of us should be greatly concerned. I am.
ExpressJet accomplished has accomplished much more than I ever thought with the IPO, but I have always held that it wouldn't have done that without CAL.
I really hope for the best for all of the ExpressJet folks, I really do, you are really a great group of people.
Last edited by OKLATEX; 05-26-2008 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Content
05-26-2008, 06:55 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Left, Right, Left
Posts: 143
Not true. XJT has their gas hedged at $2.80 a gallon. Fuel is not the issues here. It's the yields as a result of low demand, low ticket prices, and an inefficient jet.
05-26-2008, 06:58 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
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Posts: 143
I don't know if I would take it that far quite yet. But yes, as somebody that has worked at BOTH places, there are a lot of things similar. XJT is better positioned than I-Air was, but in this environment, thats not really saying all that much. And you bring up a good point, the products are similar. In the beginning when the cash was plentiful, I-Air was able to appeal to a customer base that was begging for a low cost option out of IAD. And the passengers were pleased with the product.
I laugh at Ream when he plants this seed that XJT and ACAI are nothing alike.
05-26-2008, 07:11 PM
#36
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
No, I didn't work at Indy. I do have a good friend who was there to the end.
Nevet...You bring some very valid points to what you say and I haven't been there in 3 years, so I don't know what has gone on. I agree with you some, disagree with you on others. What I am trying to say is You blame Kellner/CAL for ExpressJets problems. Ream came from CAL Micronesia. When the sold the stock, several of the top guys at CAL, Ream too, took stock, which would be normal ops in business. But when they IPOed us and you listened to them and looked at the IPO, it gave us a little hope, but if you really took a hard look at it, the place would never make it no matter what because it was too tied to CAL. You are frustrated with Kellner/CAL. I can understand that, and admire your loyalty to the company, I really do. But, in my opinion, Ream isn't that much better. He took a division of CAL and ran it as an "independent company", as you said, it never was truely its own company. It was a sucess because of CAL and the CPA, it was able to do Branded flying and Charters because of CAL, and because of CAL it is dying. It can't live with or without CAL.
Like I said, I have been gone. I never personally trusted Ream all the way, never could by off on what he sold. As far as Kellner and CAL. I think it is a crime that he was part of the "Go Forward Plan" and the pilots have the contract that they have. But the industry has changed so much since 911 and with the Oil, and it is going to get worse. At my company, they are not too optimistic about the economy through Christmas 2009. I really think that CAL is one of the best to whether the storm, but all of us should be greatly concerned. I am.
ExpressJet accomplished has accomplished much more than I ever thought with the IPO, but I have always held that it wouldn't have done that without CAL.
I really hope for the best for all of the ExpressJet folks, I really do, you are really a great group of people.
Like I said, I have been gone. I never personally trusted Ream all the way, never could by off on what he sold. As far as Kellner and CAL. I think it is a crime that he was part of the "Go Forward Plan" and the pilots have the contract that they have. But the industry has changed so much since 911 and with the Oil, and it is going to get worse. At my company, they are not too optimistic about the economy through Christmas 2009. I really think that CAL is one of the best to whether the storm, but all of us should be greatly concerned. I am.
ExpressJet accomplished has accomplished much more than I ever thought with the IPO, but I have always held that it wouldn't have done that without CAL.
I really hope for the best for all of the ExpressJet folks, I really do, you are really a great group of people.
What was the price of a gallon of fuel in June of 2006? I don't know but it may have been under $2.80. Plus, XJT is not 100% hedged at that amount so their average cost is in fact higher than that anyways. Fuel is an issue as it reduces yields for any given fare.
Last edited by Nevets; 05-26-2008 at 07:25 PM.
05-26-2008, 07:34 PM
#37
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B767 FO
Posts: 423
Nevets...That is my point exactly. We finally agree. The CPA was the writing on the wall for ExpressJet (COEX to me). You are right, it destroyed a good place to work. Some friends and I made it our number one goal to get out of there after it. Took most of us around 2-3 years to get out, and is why I left for a LCC, which was a diagonal move of sorts. I was able to interview at CAL, but bypassed and took my chances with a LCC which I was hired by, by the time CAL offered an interview. But I was nervous to stay at COEX any longer because their future was really out of their hands, no matter what Ream floated us. At the time also, CAL's future was in question regarding another Chapter 11. I took my chances on the LCC as they controlled their own fate, as much as airlines can. I then got lucky again, and got on with FedEx.
As I said, I wish all of you luck. I have a friend, who was furloughed and worked for Skywest. He always pushed for them to get a union, but he said in all fairness, it was a good place to work. Again, good luck to all of you!
By the way, while we agree on COEX/ExpressJet, I still have to say, in my opinion, CAL and Kellner are really doing a good job running that airline. We fly everyone when we deadhead, and they are really the best.
As I said, I wish all of you luck. I have a friend, who was furloughed and worked for Skywest. He always pushed for them to get a union, but he said in all fairness, it was a good place to work. Again, good luck to all of you!
By the way, while we agree on COEX/ExpressJet, I still have to say, in my opinion, CAL and Kellner are really doing a good job running that airline. We fly everyone when we deadhead, and they are really the best.
Last edited by OKLATEX; 05-26-2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: spelling
05-26-2008, 07:45 PM
#38
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Nevets...That is my point exactly. We finally agree. The CPA was the writing on the wall for ExpressJet (COEX to me). You are right, it destroyed a good place to work. Some friends and I made it our number one goal to get out of their after it. Took most of us around 2-3 years to get out, and is why I left for a LCC, which was a diagonal move of sorts. I was able to interview at CAL, but bypassed and took my chances with a LCC which I was hired by, by the time CAL offered an interview. But I was nervous to stay at COEX any longer because there future was really out of their hands, no matter what Ream floated us. At the time also, CAL's future was in question regarding another Chapter 11. I took my chances on the LCC as they controlled their own fate, as much as airline can. I then got lucky again, and got on with FedEx.
As I said, I wish all of you luck. I have a friend, who was furloughed and worked for Skywest. He always pushed for them to get a union, but he said in all fairness, it was a good place to work. Again, good luck to all of you!
By the way, while we agree on COEX/ExpressJet, I still have to say, in my opinion, CAL and Kellner are really doing a good job running that airline. We fly everyone when we deadhead, and they are really the best.
As I said, I wish all of you luck. I have a friend, who was furloughed and worked for Skywest. He always pushed for them to get a union, but he said in all fairness, it was a good place to work. Again, good luck to all of you!
By the way, while we agree on COEX/ExpressJet, I still have to say, in my opinion, CAL and Kellner are really doing a good job running that airline. We fly everyone when we deadhead, and they are really the best.
As for Skywest, the deal on the table is a non starter.
05-26-2008, 08:08 PM
#39
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Left, Right, Left
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by Nevets
What was the price of a gallon of fuel in June of 2006? I don't know but it may have been under $2.80. Plus, XJT is not 100% hedged at that amount so their average cost is in fact higher than that anyways. Fuel is an issue as it reduces yields for any given fare.
In 2006, the average cost of jet fuel averaged around $2 a gallon.
I dont know why folks from XJT's pilot group have such a difficult time with the facts. At one point, I also was drunk on the XJT Kool-Aid when I was flying the branded jets around. But, you cant hide the bold faced facts. Ream does a great job of this. I've listened to him on the all pilot CC's take the demise of the airline and make it sound like somehow there's a bright and exciting future for XJT.
For what it's worth, Branded is not even remotely this issue here. The entire airline is facing a slow death with the DL deal coming up on it's expiration date, CAL already stating it'll pul 51 more jets and ultimately not renew the CPA, Branded losing more than $100M since it's inception, Branded's schedule being pulled down on a large scale, and Branded averaging more than 2 cities failing per month since they introduced it.
Branded is hardly the problem with it only accounting for 15% or so of XJT's business. Wake up and smell the thorns.
05-26-2008, 09:20 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
70% of XJT's fuel is hedged at $2.42 a gallon.
In 2006, the average cost of jet fuel averaged around $2 a gallon.
I dont know why folks from XJT's pilot group have such a difficult time with the facts. At one point, I also was drunk on the XJT Kool-Aid when I was flying the branded jets around. But, you cant hide the bold faced facts. Ream does a great job of this. I've listened to him on the all pilot CC's take the demise of the airline and make it sound like somehow there's a bright and exciting future for XJT.
For what it's worth, Branded is not even remotely this issue here. The entire airline is facing a slow death with the DL deal coming up on it's expiration date, CAL already stating it'll pul 51 more jets and ultimately not renew the CPA, Branded losing more than $100M since it's inception, Branded's schedule being pulled down on a large scale, and Branded averaging more than 2 cities failing per month since they introduced it.
Branded is hardly the problem with it only accounting for 15% or so of XJT's business. Wake up and smell the thorns.
In 2006, the average cost of jet fuel averaged around $2 a gallon.
I dont know why folks from XJT's pilot group have such a difficult time with the facts. At one point, I also was drunk on the XJT Kool-Aid when I was flying the branded jets around. But, you cant hide the bold faced facts. Ream does a great job of this. I've listened to him on the all pilot CC's take the demise of the airline and make it sound like somehow there's a bright and exciting future for XJT.
For what it's worth, Branded is not even remotely this issue here. The entire airline is facing a slow death with the DL deal coming up on it's expiration date, CAL already stating it'll pul 51 more jets and ultimately not renew the CPA, Branded losing more than $100M since it's inception, Branded's schedule being pulled down on a large scale, and Branded averaging more than 2 cities failing per month since they introduced it.
Branded is hardly the problem with it only accounting for 15% or so of XJT's business. Wake up and smell the thorns.
I know its not all roses. I was just pointing out that Indy is not a fair comparison especially considering your point about XJT's fuel hedge.
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