Career change to pilot
05-23-2008, 11:10 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Well said....
"No one can really say what will happen...." Skyhigh 5/20/08
Things aren't going well at the moment, but it's always been an up and down industry. I've done quite well. Others haven't. But I wouldn't discount the career based on present day doom and gloom. As long as there are planes, someone will get paid to fly them. If the job becomes unworthy of your time, then do something else, like Skyhigh did. Even in the present time, for someone qualified and willing to work overseas, there are jobs available.
"No one can really say what will happen...." Skyhigh 5/20/08
Things aren't going well at the moment, but it's always been an up and down industry. I've done quite well. Others haven't. But I wouldn't discount the career based on present day doom and gloom. As long as there are planes, someone will get paid to fly them. If the job becomes unworthy of your time, then do something else, like Skyhigh did. Even in the present time, for someone qualified and willing to work overseas, there are jobs available.
05-23-2008, 11:48 AM
#72
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
In most cases where one has the dream to become an airline pilot there is a myriad of misconceptions and illusions about what the career really is. Sometimes it is very difficult to see past these to understand what it is that you are getting into.
Amazingly there is some remenant of respect that goes with being a pilot. Perhaps it has to do with how long and difficult the road is to get to the flight deck of a 121 carrier. If you are getting into the job for respect ask yourself why you need that respect; ask yourself why you feel you have failed somewhere along the way and need to prove you are not a failure. Don't get into a pilot career because you need to prove to yourself you can take up your dreams and complete them. If this is the case this career may be not the wisest of choices. Find something else that challenges you and is more financially rewarding with less financial risk. This may seem harsh, but a little truth telling sometimes goes a long way.
Which brings me to my next point... Getting into flying is very, very expensive. Sit down and make up a real budget of what this is going to cost you. Preferably not with a sales person at the local FBO as their interest is too often not the same as yours. Educate yourself on the cost and then see if you can even get close to recouping that cost with the career over the time that you could be in the career. You may be much better off getting a private license, learning to fly a tailwheel, and buying a share in a Super Decathlon or a seaplane. This plan is a lot more fun and plenty difficult.
If you like travel, that is if you like going places and seeing what there is in these places... you might consider using some of the money you saved not getting into a pilot career to buy some airline tickets to the places you WANT to see. I go places all the time and see little to nothing of them. I am a person that makes the extra effort to get out and about too. However, the overnights are too short or you are usually too isolated - no car in a hotel near the airport - to get to see or know much about exotic places like Omaha, Muskegon, or Marquette. Someday there is the promise of sushi in Narita and cedar plank grilled salmon in Anchorage, but these fabled evenings are a long way off even after a ten year career.
Understand that the industry is clearly not in the growth mode it has been over the last few years. You may instruct for a very long time. Maybe you will like it and find a way to make instruction offset the cost of training. However, there is traditionally not much money in instructing. This has been changing some lately as there has been some talk of CFI jobs with pay in the range of regional Captain salaries. But if things continue in the direction they have been as of late you will come to know the situation of a flight instructor well. You should like teaching; it is a dissapointment to fly with instructors that don't like teaching.
I am the last person to tear down someone's dream, but know exactly what you are getting into. It might not be what you think. It is unfortunately very difficult to see and know what the job is before you are there. It is very difficult to get there, it is hard on your family, the travel wears you down, and the money is very bad. Again, the money is very bad for a very long time. But, if you really want to do it and have torn down the misconceptions and illusions do it and do it well.
Amazingly there is some remenant of respect that goes with being a pilot. Perhaps it has to do with how long and difficult the road is to get to the flight deck of a 121 carrier. If you are getting into the job for respect ask yourself why you need that respect; ask yourself why you feel you have failed somewhere along the way and need to prove you are not a failure. Don't get into a pilot career because you need to prove to yourself you can take up your dreams and complete them. If this is the case this career may be not the wisest of choices. Find something else that challenges you and is more financially rewarding with less financial risk. This may seem harsh, but a little truth telling sometimes goes a long way.
Which brings me to my next point... Getting into flying is very, very expensive. Sit down and make up a real budget of what this is going to cost you. Preferably not with a sales person at the local FBO as their interest is too often not the same as yours. Educate yourself on the cost and then see if you can even get close to recouping that cost with the career over the time that you could be in the career. You may be much better off getting a private license, learning to fly a tailwheel, and buying a share in a Super Decathlon or a seaplane. This plan is a lot more fun and plenty difficult.
If you like travel, that is if you like going places and seeing what there is in these places... you might consider using some of the money you saved not getting into a pilot career to buy some airline tickets to the places you WANT to see. I go places all the time and see little to nothing of them. I am a person that makes the extra effort to get out and about too. However, the overnights are too short or you are usually too isolated - no car in a hotel near the airport - to get to see or know much about exotic places like Omaha, Muskegon, or Marquette. Someday there is the promise of sushi in Narita and cedar plank grilled salmon in Anchorage, but these fabled evenings are a long way off even after a ten year career.
Understand that the industry is clearly not in the growth mode it has been over the last few years. You may instruct for a very long time. Maybe you will like it and find a way to make instruction offset the cost of training. However, there is traditionally not much money in instructing. This has been changing some lately as there has been some talk of CFI jobs with pay in the range of regional Captain salaries. But if things continue in the direction they have been as of late you will come to know the situation of a flight instructor well. You should like teaching; it is a dissapointment to fly with instructors that don't like teaching.
I am the last person to tear down someone's dream, but know exactly what you are getting into. It might not be what you think. It is unfortunately very difficult to see and know what the job is before you are there. It is very difficult to get there, it is hard on your family, the travel wears you down, and the money is very bad. Again, the money is very bad for a very long time. But, if you really want to do it and have torn down the misconceptions and illusions do it and do it well.
Bravo! This is perhaps one of the best posts I have ever read. Lots of excellent advice. I agree that people's conception of the airline "dream" is not congruent with reality. I think dreaming to fly is an excellent dream to pursue. Dreaming to be an airline pilot...eh, not so much. I absolutely have to support the advice of putting together a REAL budget. Money is what gets you far in aviation. And there are people like CAPT management that would steal it from underneath you with elusive marketing and empty promises, just to get your money, leaving you with a broken dream. Not so fun...trust me. It's my everyday existence for the remaining 14 years of my flight training loan.
I suggest you pursue something else if you have options. Fly for fun and make money instructing others...if people can even afford to learn how to fly for fun these days given that AOPA president's #1 concern is the reduction in new pilots. I've also been told that GA flight operations (mainly flight training) have declined by 15-20% this year compared to last year. So if you can afford to learn how to fly, consider yourself fortunate to be able to do it. As far as making it a career, I'd think long and hard, with that budget sheet you worked out. Your money make things fly; even when you are getting a (marginal) paycheck from an airline. Do you have enough money to support yourself, pay rent/mortgage, utilities, insurance, gas, etc. and still afford to train to become a commercial, multi-engine instrument pilot? Do the math. Your answer to pursuing this "dream" is in the numbers.
05-23-2008, 12:05 PM
#73
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 79
After reading many forums for more than 1 year, I came to the conclusion that we have two groups of pilots. We have the "it is a great career, go for it" and the "don't even think about it". This is probably true to almost every profession so it is pointless to do something if you don't like it. The average person changes professions 4 times in their life, because people are hardly satisfied with what they do for a living. I do think that if you work hard, create opportunities for yourself (you have to look for them, they just don't fall from the sky) and keep educating yourself, then you should succeed. If you are the type who expects things to fall from the sky, stay away from this career and any sales oriented career. Also, we are in a time where you should think about aviation from a global perspective and not so much from a national view. Other parts of the world are growing and will continue to grow because they are younger economies and have more upside room. If you just want to stay in the US, know your risk, and listen to everyone including Skyhigh. He understands this business and don’t look at him quitting aviation like a failure. Maybe doors didn’t open for him, maybe he had a family who did not wanted to move giving him limited choices (you don’t know his life, is what I’m trying to say). He is right about many things and history does repeat itself from time to time, but nobody really know how much worst or better it will be from last time because economies do change, but economic principles don't. Everyone is trying to guess and make predictions based on past experiences, but as you know the past doesn't determine the future. Is it the right time to go into it? Only time will tell, but usually in a down economy is good to get ready for the upswing. I have friend doing MBA’s who are worry about jobs and salaries and the glut of MBA’s out there because of massive layoffs from banks. Pilots are not the only ones who are worry.
One thing I notice is that people on these forums tend to compare an aviation career to a doctor, lawyer, investment banker, (higher income careers) etc and hardly to jobs where the majority of the people work. Maybe this is because as a pilot, you have a chance, chance is the key word here, of making a decent income at some point( not as much as before), but it is better than the average income out there. Also remember, for every good story about any career (doctors, lawyers, dentist, etc) there were many who failed along the way. Just look at how many people take the MCAT, GMAT, etc and how many actually finish a degree and become successful. You could also go to a college who offers pre-med and see how many students in the first year and how many actually finish medical school? Believe me, the majority won't make it or will change major.
Only you know if you want it bad enough and that goes for every career, and only you could determine how far you'll go. Are other careers a safer bet? Must likely yes and more in the healthcare field, but is it something do you want to do for a living? Just remember, think of aviation from a global point of view and you will see more open doors.
One thing I notice is that people on these forums tend to compare an aviation career to a doctor, lawyer, investment banker, (higher income careers) etc and hardly to jobs where the majority of the people work. Maybe this is because as a pilot, you have a chance, chance is the key word here, of making a decent income at some point( not as much as before), but it is better than the average income out there. Also remember, for every good story about any career (doctors, lawyers, dentist, etc) there were many who failed along the way. Just look at how many people take the MCAT, GMAT, etc and how many actually finish a degree and become successful. You could also go to a college who offers pre-med and see how many students in the first year and how many actually finish medical school? Believe me, the majority won't make it or will change major.
Only you know if you want it bad enough and that goes for every career, and only you could determine how far you'll go. Are other careers a safer bet? Must likely yes and more in the healthcare field, but is it something do you want to do for a living? Just remember, think of aviation from a global point of view and you will see more open doors.
05-23-2008, 12:10 PM
#74
Need More Flight Time!
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Flight Simulator X
Posts: 400
I'm no tax expert or work for the IRS but I'm pretty sure after a certain level, you make a dollar you pay a dollar (to the government). So if he's making $1M a year and CLEARING $500K, that makes sense.
05-23-2008, 12:37 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
I am happy to supply a source of entertainment for you then. However I suggest that you cut out the name calling and retaliate by developing useful and interesting arguments in contradiction to my positions. Name calling does not suit you and only serves to lower your public image.
You can do better than name calling and slander.
SkyHigh
You can do better than name calling and slander.
SkyHigh
B.. I have described your behavior and conduct but I have not called you any names. (except one, "loser"). As for slander, that would mean that I have made false statements. I have not. You're bitter and negative, period. I call 'em as I see 'em. Sorry if your feelings are hurt.
Last edited by Zapata; 05-23-2008 at 12:45 PM.
05-23-2008, 03:58 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
A. Your "positions" aren't worth responding to because you never really have any cogent arguments.
B.. I have described your behavior and conduct but I have not called you any names. (except one, "loser"). As for slander, that would mean that I have made false statements. I have not. You're bitter and negative, period. I call 'em as I see 'em. Sorry if your feelings are hurt.
B.. I have described your behavior and conduct but I have not called you any names. (except one, "loser"). As for slander, that would mean that I have made false statements. I have not. You're bitter and negative, period. I call 'em as I see 'em. Sorry if your feelings are hurt.
05-23-2008, 05:09 PM
#78
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Two Groups of pilots
I agree that there are two groups of pilots however I have noticed that the "it is a great career, go for it" guys tend to have been in the profession for less than 5 years and the "don't even think about it" types seem to have 3 or more years.
There are of course exceptions however it seems to me that this is how the two groups separate.
In addition everyone has differing standards and expectations. If you would be satisfied with merely getting a flying job then you are in luck. Perseverance and effort will eventually pay off. However if you are seeking a return that is worthy of the effort and investment that it took to get there from a financial and security standpoint then you most likely will be disappointed.
Skyhigh
There are of course exceptions however it seems to me that this is how the two groups separate.
In addition everyone has differing standards and expectations. If you would be satisfied with merely getting a flying job then you are in luck. Perseverance and effort will eventually pay off. However if you are seeking a return that is worthy of the effort and investment that it took to get there from a financial and security standpoint then you most likely will be disappointed.
Skyhigh
05-23-2008, 06:45 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,481
I wouldn't say "don't do it", however it is an industry which is not looking good for employment in the near future. ATA, Aloha, Skybus, Champion (soon) pilots are all on the streets. Ask them how tough it is. AA, Cal, and perhaps DAL/NWA may all be furloughing soon. I read of rj's getting parked in the future and the majors pulling back on flying. If you get into this, at least realize how tough it will be and plan for future furloughs.
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