SkyHigh

I have also said that working for SWA would be a great job. It is just not for me. A big part of that is because I never had a chance at it.

Here is another earth shattering revelation for you. Last night I looked up where I would have been by now if I had made it to one of the legacy airlines back in the late 1990's when I was ready for it. It seems that even if my dream job would have come through for me I still would be an FO and would be earning less than the kid who installs tile at one of my projects.

Oh yea, and I also would be facing a furlough or lay off from most of them.

You are not a fool and I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you give up what for you is obviously a fantastic career. Most pilots however will fall way short of your accomplishments. It is false advertising for you to proclaim how great the industry is based upon your personal good fortune. How can you honestly tell a kid that things are great with the industry and that it is a good place to invest yourself?

It is taken out of context but it is still true, "anything could happen". All this turmoil could blow away and the good times could come rolling back in, however we also could be facing industry Armageddon. Our future lies somewhere in between. You are comfortable recommending this profession based upon past results. I however feel that following the trends over the last 20 years and projecting them into the future is a better indicator.

One f the things I learned while climbing the ladder is that you can not rely on information given from big time airline captains. The last time most of them had to look for a job was 20 years prior and they really were out of touch with the obsticles and opportunities of the present even at their own company.

It is much better to get information from those who were just a few rungs up the ladder ahead of you.


Skyhigh

weirdbiz

70k at a regional in 3 years? That's almost ridiculously optimistic. We should do a poll here of 3-year regional pilots and see what the average W2 income is. I'd suggest somewhere around 45k. I don't really see any payscales that would provide that even after 5 years and an upgrade, unless you pick up lots of OT and work a ton. Also, keep in mind there's the possibility of having to change companies and start over during that period, for whatever reason. And also importantly, regional flying went through a huge expansion from the late 90's until now, and that seems to be coming to an end. That means most regionals will be shrinking, which has a very negative effect on upgrade time and earnings potential. It could be counterbalanced by growing major airlines, but that doesn't look likely any time in the next few years.

de727ups

"One of the things I learned while climbing the ladder is that you can not rely on information given from big time airline captains."

Or disgruntled ex-airline pilots with an agenda...

bryris

This thread has gotten so long, I am not even sure it worth my time to give my two cents, so here is the abbreviated version, IMHO:

I used to be an accountant. I began flying in 1998 when I was 16 years old, soloed at 16, license at 17, the regular early bird route. I sort of told myself that being an airline pilot might be a cool road, but I knew damn well that I wasn't going to major in it or go to ER or some other school. It was recommended to me to get a degree in something entirely different. 9/11 just confirmed the necessity for this.

I majored in accounting and began working at a firm. I enjoyed many things about it, but mostly was unhappy with it. I decided to finish up my instructor ratings and take the pay cut and see what happens.

I quit the accounting job with no other job in sight. I had a few goals before I quit, paying off all my credit cards, etc. I found a CFI job within a couple weeks and worked there for 5 months. That was the most fun I ever had!!! I would so be a career flight instructor if there was any money in it. I really enjoy teaching. However, the school I worked for was already on its way out when I joined up and it became apparent after 2 months or so that it wasn't going to last much longer. My flying went from 80 hours a month to 30, if that.

I had about 760/33 when I put out my stuff to the regionals. I was offered an interview at 4 or 5 carriers (declined all but one) and got on with Trans States. It seemed the best deal at the time, they flew me up for the interview, I got the job, and continued to teach at the school for another week or so, then I quit. (The school closed its door the following week - talk about timing).

Training began and I enjoyed it except for being away from my wife and home for 6 straight weeks. To me this was an experiment, if nothing else, a free way to learn more about aviation and jets, fly a cool simulator and make some friends.

Well, I passed training. I remember specifically feeling sort of down as the examiner was filling out my temporary license after the checkride. Most people are probably ecstatic about this. I was happy I passed, but this marked the beginning of reserve, commuting, being away from home, and the whole onslaught of unknown things to come.

IOE came and went and I was now officially on reserve. 6 weeks later I had a hard line. I was lucky.

Fast forward a year - 700 hours later - and my viewpoint hasn't really changed. The job is just cool enough to stick with right now. I do not view myself as a professional career pilot. I view myself as a professional accountant, who is also a GA pilot at heart, who happens to have a job flying jets right now. The benefit of this thought process is that I don't have as much invested in it as some others. If the industry goes too far south, I'll quit and go back to what I used to do.

I do enjoy it. I enjoy goofing off with the crews, reading the USA today on the early morning flights, padding my logbook really well, etc. I don't like the commuting, many nights in hotels, the constant rumor mills and complaining, worrying about the nasty fed over my shoulder, etc.

And honestly, I probably knew more about flying as a whole when I was exclusively in GA than I do now. 121 is such a specialized field. Flight plans are handed to you, you are in constant comm with dispatch, it just isn't the same as completely fending for yourself as I was used to doing. So many of the little rules and tricks that I taught students have accumulated so much dust now. Part of me actually feels like less of a pilot now than I was then.

Anyway, time will tell what I do. My point here is that even after doing it for a year, I am still on the fence. Like I said, right now its just good enough to keep putting one foot in front of the other. However, it probably wouldn't take much to push me over the edge and pull out of this.

If you want to log hours like there is no tomorrow, this job is good for you.

If you want to be a damn good pilot, and enjoy good QOL, but don't care about amassing loads of hours, then I'd go find another job and buy an airplane, work on it, fly it, teach on the side, etc.

Its not really this job or no flying. Sure, flying is an expensive hobby. But a C150 ot 172 isn't that expensive really. $100 hamburgers are pretty tasty. No SOP, no GOM, no crew scheduling.

HercDriver130

More and more I speak with CA's and FO's who it wouldnt take much for them to leave the business. I understand. Really I do. I left it once. Years later I am back....Mine is a different story for sure and without success on the "outside" for the past 10 years or so I wouldn't be in a position to do this now. My point is that everyone has to make their own way in the world. Many get into aviation thinking of how "cool" it is or for any number of reasons. Personally aviation was/is in my family and its all I ever wanted to do... frankly when i left the airline biz it was after 8 years of flying in the military and nearly 3 for AE in the early 90's and I was a bit burned out AND I had been at the bottom of the Flagship senority list for that 3 years...

I caution anyone I speak with about the industry and its pitfalls but I believe for some of us its the right profession.

Molon Labe

SkyHigh and Hindsight, you two have the most realistic views here, If a pilot has been in this line of work for 20 or more years he will have seen an appalling decline in pay and quality of life. Those who are very new may not have encountered the continuing an accelerative demise of the pilot career. At first one can be in this for the love of flying but after a while it is about money.......By the way I can name three or four airlines with pilot groups that almost to the man view things the way SkyHigh does they are just in too deep to readily leave, and those airline have 5000 plus pilots.

bryris

Also, another good piece of advice is to live below your means. You may make x right now, but if you are furloughed or something similar, medical loss, etc, you may only average .6x or something over the whole period. Stockpile money!!!

SkyHigh

At least within the last seven years I have worked for a regional, been to interviews, written resumes', been furloughed, gone to job fairs, received unemployment, filled out an endless pile of applications ....ect

You have not done most any of that. When was the last time you had to look for a job? Early 1990's maybe? How can you really claim to be in touch with the plight of the modern airline pilot at all?

SkyHigh

My agenda is to help people.

Learflyer

I'm once again, on Skyhigh's side of things. No agenda, just speaking the truth about what happened to me in this Biz. I started out in 1990 when I was a senior in HS. Couldn't even find an instructing job where back then they put a broom in your hand, and later on maybe you can start instructing. I come from the days you needed 500 hrs. TT to just instruct! Mind you i'm only 36. There was no internet, no sites like this, no willflyforfood.com, no aviationinterviews.com, etc. All there was was the Airjobs Digest. We had to blindly hand type resumes out and send them to whomever would accept. We didn't know Mesa sucked, or NJA's interview gouge, or UAL was the place to be.

I had to fight, scratch, and claw just to get a job flying a 310 at night. My big break finally came when a buddy of mine who was flying right seat in a corporate jet got a job somewhere else and offered the position he was in to me. Of course I accepted. I was out of Aviation at the time because it was during the downturn of the mid 90's, and no one was hiring.

Did that job for a while and loved it! The boss passed away (how could he), and the aircraft was sold, and I was out. Went to a pretty good 135 job in South florida in 2000. Once again, never upgraded. flew as an fo. That place shut down and then Raytheon Travel Air called. Some of you kids never heard of it i'm sure. They were the Netjets of the late 90's, early 20's. "you should upgrade in 6 months". Nope. We were bought out by Sanford and Son (Flight Options). I lost a year seniority, and spent the next 7 years in the Right seat!

Around this time, life started sucking there because the union was voted in ( I voted for it), and management started making life miserable. (They hired that union busting law firm out of atlanta.) I just up and quit without another job like Bryris did on the above post. Got a job at a local part 142 sim facility and have been here now for two years. My qol has skyrocketed, home everynight, and this week I only work 2 hours per day making very good money. I'm also enrolled in an online school, and excited about learning new things.

Moral of the story......My path I took led me to never being able to upgrade to Captain. Mind you I was still typed in several aircraft, but I never had the opportunity to ever "play" Captain and sign out for aircraft under my responsibility. I would never discourage anyone from entering the field, I just hope you're luck is better than some of the fellas on here. That's all it is is luck BTW. Right place, right time. BTW, I just interviewed with NJA last month. Took them about 5 weeks to tell me they're not interested. When that happened, I felt kind of an inner peace that's allowing me to pursue other interests.

de727ups

"I would never discourage anyone from entering the field..."

Neither would I. I see many folks at APC, and in real life, that are happy with their career choice. That's why I can't smile and look the other way when people knock the job. I tell things from my perspective, just as you do. It doesn't work out for everyone. There are no guarantees. That said, while luck is everything, I think sometimes you make your own luck by the choices you make. NJA turns you down? Try another frac. If that doesn't fit your plan, then fine, but maybe it does fit the next guys plan and that's how one puts himself in the right place at the right time....which many call luck.