Who else is happy?????
04-23-2008, 07:40 AM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 843
But it's not just the non-economic value of the relocation trade-off that matters, there's a cold number game for that too. Every time you decide to relocate for the sake of the "flexible" alternative you also have to compound the wife's job, her job portability and income matching at the new location, the kids. If you decide to commute instead, there's clearly an economic opportunity cost to living out of a crash pad/hotel. It's just not even as simple as saying "the job or the family" from an emotional perspective.
Bottom line it's not for everybody and as much as it chafes the kool-aid drinkers, there is a lot variability to a successful career if you live in the real world of real life constraints and valuation of tradeoffs. If such tradeoffs were not relevant then this discussion would indeed be that simple, as some of the more fortunante players in this game have been. But for those of us who make decisions based on a particular value to wife's happiness and ability to be content with her own career and social network(that requires geographical homesteading), the value of having nights and weekends off like the rest of the world one intends to interact with, the ability to have a shot at a defined pension plan, and the ability to retain income power through lateral career options, the airlines may not prove to be the simple game of "can you HACK it?" that a lot of people like to use to dilute and divert the discussion with.
Ironically enough, I heard the exact same argument from the engineering world when I told my graduate school peers that I was skipping comencement and having the masters in engineering I was to receive 2 weeks later mailed to a PO box as I went on to fly for the military while they continued on their pursuit of a tenured professorship (UPS of academia) via the standard doctorate and post-doctorate work of 20-40K for 10+ years to end up teaching at 35K/yr (man if that is not THE parallel to post-recession regional FO career you need to have your eyes checked) at a 2-year college anyways at the ripe age of 35ish, with multiple regional moves just like airline pilots face. And I'm the quitter... So no I dont' think it's limited to the intricacies of airline work, it's an attitude, some people just need to learn how to hedge their bets better, but getting paid in takeoffs and landings inhibits them from thinking rationally and threads like this do pose a sobering dose of thinking that a lot of people could benefit from, even if they do go on to pursuit airline work, which at this point I've deemed not worthwhile for my personal and even professional flying aspirations, yet clearly worked for our other eloquent posters such as de727. Just don't go into the "you can't hack it" argument, that's just foolish and gets quickly debunked by going into more classical careers that quickly prove that perseverance for the "movie value" of itself is foolishness and the stuff of fantasy land...and learning that lesson after 15 years of your 20s and 30s, professional certifications and/or thousands in debt to end up making below the median individual income is a rather expensive lesson when you could have gotten the same clue by reading 10 pages of a free anonymous message board! Ouch!
Good thread
Bottom line it's not for everybody and as much as it chafes the kool-aid drinkers, there is a lot variability to a successful career if you live in the real world of real life constraints and valuation of tradeoffs. If such tradeoffs were not relevant then this discussion would indeed be that simple, as some of the more fortunante players in this game have been. But for those of us who make decisions based on a particular value to wife's happiness and ability to be content with her own career and social network(that requires geographical homesteading), the value of having nights and weekends off like the rest of the world one intends to interact with, the ability to have a shot at a defined pension plan, and the ability to retain income power through lateral career options, the airlines may not prove to be the simple game of "can you HACK it?" that a lot of people like to use to dilute and divert the discussion with.
Ironically enough, I heard the exact same argument from the engineering world when I told my graduate school peers that I was skipping comencement and having the masters in engineering I was to receive 2 weeks later mailed to a PO box as I went on to fly for the military while they continued on their pursuit of a tenured professorship (UPS of academia) via the standard doctorate and post-doctorate work of 20-40K for 10+ years to end up teaching at 35K/yr (man if that is not THE parallel to post-recession regional FO career you need to have your eyes checked) at a 2-year college anyways at the ripe age of 35ish, with multiple regional moves just like airline pilots face. And I'm the quitter... So no I dont' think it's limited to the intricacies of airline work, it's an attitude, some people just need to learn how to hedge their bets better, but getting paid in takeoffs and landings inhibits them from thinking rationally and threads like this do pose a sobering dose of thinking that a lot of people could benefit from, even if they do go on to pursuit airline work, which at this point I've deemed not worthwhile for my personal and even professional flying aspirations, yet clearly worked for our other eloquent posters such as de727. Just don't go into the "you can't hack it" argument, that's just foolish and gets quickly debunked by going into more classical careers that quickly prove that perseverance for the "movie value" of itself is foolishness and the stuff of fantasy land...and learning that lesson after 15 years of your 20s and 30s, professional certifications and/or thousands in debt to end up making below the median individual income is a rather expensive lesson when you could have gotten the same clue by reading 10 pages of a free anonymous message board! Ouch!
Good thread
Last edited by hindsight2020; 04-23-2008 at 07:54 AM.
04-23-2008, 07:41 AM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: 767A (Ret)
Posts: 6,248
Career outlook
Sky,
If it's any comfort, I don't think you "just barely missed" a lucrative, family-friendly, low-risk airline career. Such a thing never existed. Many of those who almost had it fouled their own nests with bad lifestyle choices, despite having previously resolved not to do that. Forecasting a pilot's earnings is difficult; forecasting his happiness is impossible.
If it's any comfort, I don't think you "just barely missed" a lucrative, family-friendly, low-risk airline career. Such a thing never existed. Many of those who almost had it fouled their own nests with bad lifestyle choices, despite having previously resolved not to do that. Forecasting a pilot's earnings is difficult; forecasting his happiness is impossible.
04-23-2008, 07:45 AM
#193
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,107
Plenty of valid perspectives here, including SkyHigh...you, yes YOU, could easily grow up to be the next SkyHigh. Or you might get into a purple or brown airplane, who knows?
For the younger folks, I'll throw a few thoughts out...
I was a career changer. Pre 9/11 it looked like the airlines would compensate as much as I could make in corporate america, with more time off. This assumed that I did not fully dedicate myself to corporate upward mobility...80 hour weeks did not really appeal, since I have a family and a variety of outside interests.
Post 9/11 everthing changed of course. I was barely flying professionally, but decided to stick it out and see what would happen since I had come that far already. This decision was made easier by a high demand on the military, which ensured I could make all the money I needed in the reserves.
While all of this was going on, some of my outside activities started to really pay off. Long story short, I have more financial flexibility than most regional pilots...I'm am not obligated to take the first job offer I get on the other side of the country, just to make a couple extra bucks per hour. The loss in opportunity on the airline side was compensated by gains elsewhere...but I'd be hosed if those outside gains had not materialized.
I like flying, and my schedule is largely under my control, so I'm happy with what I'm doing. My situation is the result of hard work, and a certain amount of luck and timing. But in the interest of fair and balanced reporting, I'm going to throw out a few negatives...
1. In TODAYS environment, I would never have been able to justify the career change. It would be at best irresponsible (family) and at worst idiotic.
2. For a young person, this career is risky...you normally incur large debt and the payoff is not guaranteed. Hard to say exactly what the odds are, but the entitlement generation seems to have a "faith-based" optimism that it will all work out for them...there is little attention to reality among this crowd. Of course they will be the most bitter and unhappy when they top out as an RJ CA...
3. The regional compensation system WILL NOT fund your retirement...this is the biggest self-delusional fantasy going. If you get stuck at a regional, you WILL need a plan B...unless you want to spend your twilight years in a trailer park eating top-ramen while waiting anxiously for the social security check.
4. If I were young and wanted to fly (which was the case at one point), knowing what I know now, I would bust my tail to make some money in the real world first. Fly on the side (CFI or whatever), then try to enter the airlines with no debt and a good chunk in the IRA. Keep your non-avaition options alive, just in case you need supplemental income. This actually describes my path, although I didn't originally plan it that way.
For the younger folks, I'll throw a few thoughts out...
I was a career changer. Pre 9/11 it looked like the airlines would compensate as much as I could make in corporate america, with more time off. This assumed that I did not fully dedicate myself to corporate upward mobility...80 hour weeks did not really appeal, since I have a family and a variety of outside interests.
Post 9/11 everthing changed of course. I was barely flying professionally, but decided to stick it out and see what would happen since I had come that far already. This decision was made easier by a high demand on the military, which ensured I could make all the money I needed in the reserves.
While all of this was going on, some of my outside activities started to really pay off. Long story short, I have more financial flexibility than most regional pilots...I'm am not obligated to take the first job offer I get on the other side of the country, just to make a couple extra bucks per hour. The loss in opportunity on the airline side was compensated by gains elsewhere...but I'd be hosed if those outside gains had not materialized.
I like flying, and my schedule is largely under my control, so I'm happy with what I'm doing. My situation is the result of hard work, and a certain amount of luck and timing. But in the interest of fair and balanced reporting, I'm going to throw out a few negatives...
1. In TODAYS environment, I would never have been able to justify the career change. It would be at best irresponsible (family) and at worst idiotic.
2. For a young person, this career is risky...you normally incur large debt and the payoff is not guaranteed. Hard to say exactly what the odds are, but the entitlement generation seems to have a "faith-based" optimism that it will all work out for them...there is little attention to reality among this crowd. Of course they will be the most bitter and unhappy when they top out as an RJ CA...
3. The regional compensation system WILL NOT fund your retirement...this is the biggest self-delusional fantasy going. If you get stuck at a regional, you WILL need a plan B...unless you want to spend your twilight years in a trailer park eating top-ramen while waiting anxiously for the social security check.
4. If I were young and wanted to fly (which was the case at one point), knowing what I know now, I would bust my tail to make some money in the real world first. Fly on the side (CFI or whatever), then try to enter the airlines with no debt and a good chunk in the IRA. Keep your non-avaition options alive, just in case you need supplemental income. This actually describes my path, although I didn't originally plan it that way.
04-23-2008, 07:53 AM
#194
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: CL-65 FO
Posts: 21
You are right that salaries are easliy looked up on here that is why I didn't feel 727 needed to throw it out but point taken, its good to throw some hope out there. Rickair7777 couldn't agree with you more.
04-23-2008, 07:57 AM
#195
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
Well, supporting your family will never be looked at as a bad thing, infact, it's the responsible thing to do (just look at maury and DNA test specials....everyone expects dad to stick around) The truth though, is how you decide to support your family is up to you. Everyone wants to provide the best life for their loved ones, if financial security was the LONE goal of success for yourself and your family, odds are you'd never see them, as you'd be working constantly. Not everyone will make a million dollars on an invention, not everyone will be a CEO and recieve lifetime insurance and a $6 mil, bonus upon retirement, but i don't think the majority of people go around CHASING money.
Which essentially tells me, that we're all "settling" for some form of living. We settle to accept a certain lifestyle and quality of life depending on our own defined needs and desires. For someone to pre-define what another individual needs to make in order to be succesful is crazy, as the results are so subjective.
As far as finding the right job in the right location with the right quality of life and the right pay seems like something that would severly limit ANYONE in ANY field. Of my friends, many have had to move for a new work, then move again for a promotion, move again for that next city closing it's store/operation. Thtat's the typical uncertainty of life, and can't be predicted.
Which essentially tells me, that we're all "settling" for some form of living. We settle to accept a certain lifestyle and quality of life depending on our own defined needs and desires. For someone to pre-define what another individual needs to make in order to be succesful is crazy, as the results are so subjective.
As far as finding the right job in the right location with the right quality of life and the right pay seems like something that would severly limit ANYONE in ANY field. Of my friends, many have had to move for a new work, then move again for a promotion, move again for that next city closing it's store/operation. Thtat's the typical uncertainty of life, and can't be predicted.
04-23-2008, 08:47 AM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"If a guy is trying to make things better for his family I have a hard time faulting him..."
I don't fault him for that. I fault him for bashing the whole career without taking into accout we aren't all in his shoes...
"Also one more point...telling everyone how much you make...classy."
Sorry, I don't do it to be rude, I do it to make the point that this can be worthy career for those who stick with it.
It's not that I have a problem with quiting for ones own personal reasons. It's quitting, then bashing the career, then saying a job at SWA is not worthy of my time so the career is crap. I can have no respect for that.
I don't fault him for that. I fault him for bashing the whole career without taking into accout we aren't all in his shoes...
"Also one more point...telling everyone how much you make...classy."
Sorry, I don't do it to be rude, I do it to make the point that this can be worthy career for those who stick with it.
It's not that I have a problem with quiting for ones own personal reasons. It's quitting, then bashing the career, then saying a job at SWA is not worthy of my time so the career is crap. I can have no respect for that.
04-23-2008, 09:42 AM
#197
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
I am not a sour puss and love a good struggle, but when I evaluate the risk versus reward tradeoff for applying to regional airlines I rarely see it in favor of joining. Just not enough money. This may be surprising given that I am single with moderate debts, a compact lifestyle and no ties to family. I do not see it as a bad career, just that there is a pretty high cost involved. I have a friend who opted for the bargain and is quite happy in his regional career while looking to the majors. I have little doubt he will make it because is determined to make it. DE is right- if you want to fly nothing will stop you.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 04-23-2008 at 09:50 AM.
04-24-2008, 05:10 AM
#198
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Comparison
Comparison.
Most people outside of aviation when presented with the facts, realities, risks, sacrifices and costs of an airline career will look at you with a twisted face and ask "why would anyone do that to them self"?
Aviation is not a vacuum. The fun factor will cost you. Plumbers do not have to pay a small fortune to get into their profession. Cops can get a job in almost any town in America if they have previous experience. Firefighters have a good retirement system. Long haul truck drivers are being hired off the street with zero experience and are being paid 42K while in training.
The rest of the working world isn't so glamorous but is isn't so difficult to match regional captain pay without having to add on the rest of the sacrifices either. In summary when compared with other common professions an airline career just isn't worth it anymore. Pilots are paying a high price for their shaky profession. If we all could find a job as pilots at UPS, SWA or FedEx then this would be a different story, however their just isn't enough room at the top for most.
DE- I would really like some answerers to my questions. If you do not then I will be forced to assume that you are intentionally avoiding them because the answers would support my premise.
How many applications are on file with UPS? A pilots chances of making it to UPS are 140 to one.
SkyHigh
Most people outside of aviation when presented with the facts, realities, risks, sacrifices and costs of an airline career will look at you with a twisted face and ask "why would anyone do that to them self"?
Aviation is not a vacuum. The fun factor will cost you. Plumbers do not have to pay a small fortune to get into their profession. Cops can get a job in almost any town in America if they have previous experience. Firefighters have a good retirement system. Long haul truck drivers are being hired off the street with zero experience and are being paid 42K while in training.
The rest of the working world isn't so glamorous but is isn't so difficult to match regional captain pay without having to add on the rest of the sacrifices either. In summary when compared with other common professions an airline career just isn't worth it anymore. Pilots are paying a high price for their shaky profession. If we all could find a job as pilots at UPS, SWA or FedEx then this would be a different story, however their just isn't enough room at the top for most.
DE- I would really like some answerers to my questions. If you do not then I will be forced to assume that you are intentionally avoiding them because the answers would support my premise.
How many applications are on file with UPS? A pilots chances of making it to UPS are 140 to one.
SkyHigh
04-24-2008, 05:41 AM
#199
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Love to fly
"DE is right- if you want to fly nothing will stop you"
Not friends, family, finances, security, love of country, home, spouse or anything else for that matter. It will eat you up till there is nothing left of your outside life if you let it become an obsession.
Flying is just a job after all. And a poor one at that.
SkyHigh
Not friends, family, finances, security, love of country, home, spouse or anything else for that matter. It will eat you up till there is nothing left of your outside life if you let it become an obsession.
Flying is just a job after all. And a poor one at that.
SkyHigh
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