Who else is happy?????
04-22-2008, 02:02 PM
#171
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,947
What happened to critical thinking?
Here is another way of looking at it:
UPS has 2,945 pilots total.
Average career length 30 years.
Divide 2945 pilots /30 years = 98.1 average new hires per year.
I read here on the forum some place that at any time UPS has over 14,000 applications on file from current and qualified pilots.
Divide the number of applications on file by the average annual hire amount 14,000/98.1 and you get odds of 142.7 to one of getting hired at UPS.
Like any company they hire the best and the brightest that are available at the time. If you miss the window and have to wait another couple of years then your odds have reduced a bit. Now you are an aging captain who looks a bit like an underachiever if you are still the pilot of an RJ four years later. Wait another 4 years and you are nearly out of the running.
We all fight and sacrifice for our brief moment in the hiring spotlight. HR departments like young enthusiastic early achievers with positive attitudes and few attachments. Miss the cycle or gain a little weight and it could be over for you. Anyone who has been in this industry for a decade or more has a resume that my have a lay off or furlough on it. As time drags on it becomes difficult to avoid having some kind of career blemish or hardship. Just more questions for the HR department to dwell on and your odds slip a bit further.
And the price of oil just keeps going up.
SKyHigh
UPS has 2,945 pilots total.
Average career length 30 years.
Divide 2945 pilots /30 years = 98.1 average new hires per year.
I read here on the forum some place that at any time UPS has over 14,000 applications on file from current and qualified pilots.
Divide the number of applications on file by the average annual hire amount 14,000/98.1 and you get odds of 142.7 to one of getting hired at UPS.
Like any company they hire the best and the brightest that are available at the time. If you miss the window and have to wait another couple of years then your odds have reduced a bit. Now you are an aging captain who looks a bit like an underachiever if you are still the pilot of an RJ four years later. Wait another 4 years and you are nearly out of the running.
We all fight and sacrifice for our brief moment in the hiring spotlight. HR departments like young enthusiastic early achievers with positive attitudes and few attachments. Miss the cycle or gain a little weight and it could be over for you. Anyone who has been in this industry for a decade or more has a resume that my have a lay off or furlough on it. As time drags on it becomes difficult to avoid having some kind of career blemish or hardship. Just more questions for the HR department to dwell on and your odds slip a bit further.
And the price of oil just keeps going up.
SKyHigh
Despite your UPS odds being perhaps correct using those hypothetical numbers, not all of the applications are legitimate or competitive and the people that have submitted those applications have also submitted them to many other companies.
If you were to take the resumes received at FDX, UPS, SWA, DAL, CAL, NWA, NJA, Cathay, Emirates, et cetera I am willing to be you would find A LOT of names that have their resume on file with all of those places simultaneously.
I'll let you take a stab at how that affects the odds of getting hired at, not necessarily the first choice company, but a company at the "major league" level.
We're waiting.
04-22-2008, 02:21 PM
#172
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,857
Seriously why are you such a jerk? All you ever do is tell us how it is, and your life is way different from ours, why do you even troll around the regional threads? Tell me the last turboprop you flew, the decade, and how much you made. I may not always agree with Skyhigh, but I think his message as a regional pilot is much more pertinent to the regional forum than a big shot box hauler telling us how our business is today. Note how I didnt say how your business was. Believe me when I say a regional FO is not on the same team as a captain. Anyone who believes we are needs to put the bottle down.
04-22-2008, 04:20 PM
#173
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
Posts: 1,349
I rarely agree with Skyhigh and have challenged his posts. However, I respect his right to voice his opinion. Comments like those above including calling him a "coward" on another post are inappropriate and not what we should hear from professional pilots on this forum.
04-22-2008, 04:37 PM
#174
Administrator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: C-172
Posts: 8,024
I agree with you, Ftrooppilot. Posts like these are inappropriate and highly offensive. They have no place on APC. Name calling and insults only reveal the poster's own insecurities and lack of a viable argument. Like my late momma used to say "if you have nothing nice to say, shut up about it."
04-22-2008, 06:41 PM
#175
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Applications
Foolish logic.
Despite your UPS odds being perhaps correct using those hypothetical numbers, not all of the applications are legitimate or competitive and the people that have submitted those applications have also submitted them to many other companies.
If you were to take the resumes received at FDX, UPS, SWA, DAL, CAL, NWA, NJA, Cathay, Emirates, et cetera I am willing to be you would find A LOT of names that have their resume on file with all of those places simultaneously.
I'll let you take a stab at how that affects the odds of getting hired at, not necessarily the first choice company, but a company at the "major league" level.
We're waiting.
Despite your UPS odds being perhaps correct using those hypothetical numbers, not all of the applications are legitimate or competitive and the people that have submitted those applications have also submitted them to many other companies.
If you were to take the resumes received at FDX, UPS, SWA, DAL, CAL, NWA, NJA, Cathay, Emirates, et cetera I am willing to be you would find A LOT of names that have their resume on file with all of those places simultaneously.
I'll let you take a stab at how that affects the odds of getting hired at, not necessarily the first choice company, but a company at the "major league" level.
We're waiting.
Right now the big three are; UPS, FedEx and SWA.
UPS 2945
FedEx 4760
SWA 5600
Total 13,305
13,305 divided by a 30 year average career length and we are left with 443.5 Hires in an average year due to retirements. At any one time we nationally have 14,000 to 17,000 current qualified and experienced pilots in the total applicant pool.
Qualified = college educated, 1000 hours of turbine PIC.
Divide the number of qualified applicants (Average 15,500) by the averaged annual hire of 443.5 and your total odds have jumped to 34.949 to one. As pilots we will peak in employment desirability at around 25 to 35 years of age and between 1000 and 2000 hours of jet PIC.
Result: Pilot odds will improve to a point where for a few years the best chances are nearly 35 to one of getting hired at SWA, UPS or FedEx. After that they then begin to worsen over time.
If you wish to add in UAL, DAL, CAL then the odds get a little better however the return on a career at these companies has been greatly discounted over the last few years. You could throw in a bunch of other random companies and better your odds but that is exactly what my point is. Eventually most here will have to accept a greatly reduced version of their dream and that may not be worth the effort.
SkyHigh
04-22-2008, 06:45 PM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"Seriously why are you such a jerk?"
Sorry you feel that way.
"why do you even troll around the regional threads?"
It's my second vocation. The regional threads seem to demand the most attention here at APC.
"Holy bananas, you just put the smack down on the Co-Owner of APC"
I don't own nothing. I'm just a mod at APC. Sometimes I think people "put the smack down" cause they know I work here and won't "smack back". Funny how that works.....
Sorry you feel that way.
"why do you even troll around the regional threads?"
It's my second vocation. The regional threads seem to demand the most attention here at APC.
"Holy bananas, you just put the smack down on the Co-Owner of APC"
I don't own nothing. I'm just a mod at APC. Sometimes I think people "put the smack down" cause they know I work here and won't "smack back". Funny how that works.....
04-22-2008, 06:47 PM
#177
Moderator
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
the unexamined life...
I've always appreciated both of these fellows tremendously. DE is an emblem of success in a fascinating industry, while SkyHigh contributes well-written missives from the perspective of a disillusioned former pro. It's a rich dialectic with no clear winner and everyone benefits from the counterpoint. Socrates said the unexamined life is not worth living.
04-22-2008, 06:48 PM
#178
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Swa
"to date I do not know of a single peer or colleague who has succeeded in getting hired there. (UPS)."
Maybe that was your problem?
"I am sure that there are a few regular guys who slip through the cracks. Anything is possible."
He knew somebody who was willing to recommend him?
And yet you bash the industry you walked away from cause it didn't meet your needs? SWA didn't meet your needs so you didn't apply there? And yet we are all idiots for staying in the career?
You would like to believe every pilot who has a good job and is happy staying in the biz slipped through the cracks and was far more qualified than you. I don't think that's the case, but whatever helps you sleep at night.....
Maybe that was your problem?
"I am sure that there are a few regular guys who slip through the cracks. Anything is possible."
He knew somebody who was willing to recommend him?
And yet you bash the industry you walked away from cause it didn't meet your needs? SWA didn't meet your needs so you didn't apply there? And yet we are all idiots for staying in the career?
You would like to believe every pilot who has a good job and is happy staying in the biz slipped through the cracks and was far more qualified than you. I don't think that's the case, but whatever helps you sleep at night.....
Discounted dreams.
SWA did not meet my needs therefore I did not apply. UPS didn't either. When I started out there were a few nice west coast airlines and that is where I wanted to invest myself. Alaska Airlines being the top of the list.
Others may enjoy a shotgun approach to an airline career and I accept that. It is a good approach if you are hoping for any form of airline success. However I have always been a family oriented person and really do not want to commute or to have to live in Newark or Baltimore. As such I have never spent much time applying to those companies.
SkyHigh
04-22-2008, 07:25 PM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"SWA did not meet my needs therefore I did not apply."
Yeah, but if that's the case, and SWA is a good job (your own words), you pretty much lose the right to incessantly bash the career as a useless proposition. How do you expect folks to believe your bashing of the career when you turn about and say you'd rather walk away from flying than work for SWA as a pilot? That draws zero sympathy from me. Does anyone think that makes sense?
99.9% of the folks looking to be an airline pilot when they grow up would think SWA to be a worthy job. Yet, here you are, trying to talk us out of it and tell is it's not worthy our time. It just wasn't worth YOUR time. Leave the rest of us out of YOUR career decisions.
Yeah, but if that's the case, and SWA is a good job (your own words), you pretty much lose the right to incessantly bash the career as a useless proposition. How do you expect folks to believe your bashing of the career when you turn about and say you'd rather walk away from flying than work for SWA as a pilot? That draws zero sympathy from me. Does anyone think that makes sense?
99.9% of the folks looking to be an airline pilot when they grow up would think SWA to be a worthy job. Yet, here you are, trying to talk us out of it and tell is it's not worthy our time. It just wasn't worth YOUR time. Leave the rest of us out of YOUR career decisions.
04-22-2008, 08:19 PM
#180
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I don't understand
"SWA did not meet my needs therefore I did not apply."
Yeah, but if that's the case, and SWA is a good job (your own words), you pretty much lose the right to incessantly bash the career as a useless proposition. How do you expect folks to believe your bashing of the career when you turn about and say you'd rather walk away from flying than work for SWA as a pilot? That draws zero sympathy from me. Does anyone think that makes sense?
99.9% of the folks looking to be an airline pilot when they grow up would think SWA to be a worthy job. Yet, here you are, trying to talk us out of it and tell is it's not worthy our time. It just wasn't worth YOUR time. Leave the rest of us out of YOUR career decisions.
Yeah, but if that's the case, and SWA is a good job (your own words), you pretty much lose the right to incessantly bash the career as a useless proposition. How do you expect folks to believe your bashing of the career when you turn about and say you'd rather walk away from flying than work for SWA as a pilot? That draws zero sympathy from me. Does anyone think that makes sense?
99.9% of the folks looking to be an airline pilot when they grow up would think SWA to be a worthy job. Yet, here you are, trying to talk us out of it and tell is it's not worthy our time. It just wasn't worth YOUR time. Leave the rest of us out of YOUR career decisions.
Many would not be happy living in Dubai. Some might not like being gone for weeks at a time. If this profession truly valued experience and natural talent then we should not have to trade our homes and possibly our nation to stay gainfully employed.
To those who are from Texas or the east coast then SWA would be a natural choice. Those who live in Michigan shoot for NWA. I live in the Pacific Northwest. My goal has always been Alaska Airlines. In all my years of flying I have never even met a captain for SWA. They just do not commonly live in the NW. However; I have several friends and grew up with knowing people who work for Alaska Airlines.
My lifestyle values change nothing as to the nature of this profession. It only proves that I will not sell out what is dear to my family and I. You obviously would.
SkyHigh
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