I am ashamed of working here.
03-30-2008, 08:24 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: CRJ-900 FO, Supra left seat
Posts: 303
flyboyshell,
I will move on but like the name, I am a pilot, it's my career. I can't just quit and expect to pay my bills. I have a "strike savings" worth about 2 months of income, which equated to roughly $2000...... does that shock you? It better. I had a better job, and trying to make my life better, decided to try the "sacrifice, pay your dues" thing- AGAIN. I the CFI thing for 2 years, did 1200 dual and now I make less flying a regional jet than I did as a CFI.... I MADE less flying a Learjet than I did as a CFI, do you see a problem with that?!?!? So as a CFI, I didn't want to fly at a regional because I thought the pay was rediculous. I was right, and still am. I'm not sure where along the lines I thought I was going to upgrade AS ADVERTISED (not a deserving thing, but the fact that they advertise it makes you believe you have the CHANCE) and now I am stuck as an FO on FO pay. I was making what a CA makes at 9E when I was an FO at my last job.
I pulled in $1000/wk as an FO!
Now I pull in $1400/mo after taxes WITH perdiem. I have a wife that I have to TRY to take care of, and a dad who doesn't charge me rent on his rental home... so I'm blessed with the rent thing. I wish I was in a different pay scale for the heartache I endure being away from my wife, family, and friends, the constant attempts of C.S. trying to get my junior manned.
I actually am going to go see about food stamps when I get home, no kidding. 10 packs of rammon for $1, full of sodium, but it's food. Wait, why am I saying this??? I'm a pilot that's 1/2 responsible for 50+ lives at a time in a dangerous environment while working in that environment for 15 hours!
Look, I WAS a happy employee, and I THOUGHT I could make it even better by sacrificing.
I was wrong. HOWEVER, I made the best decision based upon the best information available at the time - sorta. I should have listened to everyone that warned me about this company. I know of regionals where people don't upgrade as fast, but WHY is that? Maybe people stay longer and are happier, so therefore PAYING DUES isn't actually that - it's a lifestyle instead.
I will move on but like the name, I am a pilot, it's my career. I can't just quit and expect to pay my bills. I have a "strike savings" worth about 2 months of income, which equated to roughly $2000...... does that shock you? It better. I had a better job, and trying to make my life better, decided to try the "sacrifice, pay your dues" thing- AGAIN. I the CFI thing for 2 years, did 1200 dual and now I make less flying a regional jet than I did as a CFI.... I MADE less flying a Learjet than I did as a CFI, do you see a problem with that?!?!? So as a CFI, I didn't want to fly at a regional because I thought the pay was rediculous. I was right, and still am. I'm not sure where along the lines I thought I was going to upgrade AS ADVERTISED (not a deserving thing, but the fact that they advertise it makes you believe you have the CHANCE) and now I am stuck as an FO on FO pay. I was making what a CA makes at 9E when I was an FO at my last job.
I pulled in $1000/wk as an FO!
Now I pull in $1400/mo after taxes WITH perdiem. I have a wife that I have to TRY to take care of, and a dad who doesn't charge me rent on his rental home... so I'm blessed with the rent thing. I wish I was in a different pay scale for the heartache I endure being away from my wife, family, and friends, the constant attempts of C.S. trying to get my junior manned.
I actually am going to go see about food stamps when I get home, no kidding. 10 packs of rammon for $1, full of sodium, but it's food. Wait, why am I saying this??? I'm a pilot that's 1/2 responsible for 50+ lives at a time in a dangerous environment while working in that environment for 15 hours!
Look, I WAS a happy employee, and I THOUGHT I could make it even better by sacrificing.
I was wrong. HOWEVER, I made the best decision based upon the best information available at the time - sorta. I should have listened to everyone that warned me about this company. I know of regionals where people don't upgrade as fast, but WHY is that? Maybe people stay longer and are happier, so therefore PAYING DUES isn't actually that - it's a lifestyle instead.
03-30-2008, 08:31 AM
#103
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 359
03-30-2008, 08:35 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 359
Part of being professional is not getting on public forums to vent. We have a company forum where everyone can get on and say "you would not believe how scheduling tried to schedule me to do 14 legs in one day..." or whatever other BS occured. There everyone is on the same level. Here and other public forums are not places to go spouting off personal issues and IMO complaints that others can see right through as being egotistical.
Moral of the post is know the facts and be professional and you will get good advice and thoughts on a public board.
Moral of the post is know the facts and be professional and you will get good advice and thoughts on a public board.
03-30-2008, 08:42 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Spaceman, if you "are" a 757/767 FO, you "are" the type of person I would be looking up to for advice. IF you noticed that I am working my up the ladder like you, don't boot me down. My knowledge of actually working in an airline is practically nil, zero, nada! So any help would be appreciated.
I apologize for being negative, I should have remembered that I felt the same way when I was a young pilot, too. It's easy to get down on the industry, but that's no excuse.
At the same time, it is important to enter this industry with your eyes wide open...it does not offer the level of financial reward it did only a few years ago, and airlines are taking drastic measures to cut costs (usually resulting in a lower quality of life for pilots). But most days, it still beats working for a living.
I will be happy to help you in any way I can. Please don't hesitate to PM me if I can offer advice or help out.
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 03-30-2008 at 08:48 AM.
03-30-2008, 08:56 AM
#106
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Soon2B
Posts: 54
BTW! I found this on 9E's website, “Did you know Pinnacle Airlines flies over 750 flights every day? And, on average, our pilots are flying 750 hours per year? That means qualified pilots move up faster working with us. And we’re definitely hiring! So if you’re interested in flying with Pinnacle, please fill out this form, answer our questions and we’ll get the process started." - Is this true/false or just a sales pitch?
Last edited by flyboyshell; 03-30-2008 at 09:19 AM.
03-30-2008, 09:02 AM
#107
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Soon2B
Posts: 54
Spaceman, do you think the economy, gas prices, etc have a direct impact on how the airlines have to run? I would imagine the situation improving if the gas price were lower and the economy in a better position. Do things have to get worse before they get better?
03-30-2008, 09:36 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Jump
Posts: 276
TheProfessionalPilot,
I know, life sucks on the bottom of the aviation ladder. It's one of those things you just have to live with for a while and suck it up. My career has been similar, probably worse than yours, as were many others.
I graduated college in August 2001, just one month before 9/11 happened. I could not get a commerical flying job to save my life. I took a part time customer service job at an FBO and another at a regional airline to pay the bills while I worked on my CFI and CFII. In 2003, I got my first CFI job paying $10/flight hr. They had only 1 student for me and there were 6 other new CFI's who were waiting to get students, so I had to look for another job.
I looked all over the country for another job and finally got a CFI job in Kentucky. It was horrible, with a terrible, venegeful manager and an owner who falsified the maintenance records on his airplanes. I made $10,000/year doing that, not even enough to live on. I also flew traffic watch part time in a C-172 with lousy maintenance. I had an engine failure 600ft above the ground on takeoff at night time, with passengers onboard and barely made it back to the airport. And I did that for $10/flight hr. After almost crashing due to lousy maintenance, I quit that job.
The next year I landed a CFI job in Phoenix that paid me $13,000/year, but at least the management was good and the planes were maintained. I sweated my ass off every single day in the afternoon Phoenix heat.
Finally, after I had 1400TT, I got a call from Scenic Airlines and went to work in a noisy, unpressurized turbo prop that I had to do the flight attendant briefings bent over in a hot plane that I couldn't even stand up in. It wasn't glamorous, but at least the managment was nice, the MX was good, and I enjoyed it. But it still only paid me about $19,000/year.
After a year of that, I moved to Detroit, MI and flew on-demand jet cargo in 40 year old airplanes for what turned out to be another lousy company. Just imagine having to hand load 5000 pounds of metal parts into the back of an airplane while bent over in south Texas heat and humidity with no air conditioning; you were soakin wet with sweat by the end. Then we had to fly to Canada where we would land on an icy runway with no thrust reversers and unload it in rain and freezing temperatures. And we did stuff like that a lot!
The next year I was able to transfer to the company's DFW base which gave me some sort of a personal life, but no raise in pay and no safer flying. That job paid me the hefty amount of $30,000/year plus per diem and I did it for about 2 years.
Finally, after about 5 years of suffering like this, moving around the country 5 times, and earning barely enough money to live on, I got a lucky break and made it to a job flying an MD-80 that I'm very happy at with the potential to make a pretty good living.
My point is...this is what you have to do to make it in this industry. Most of the new guys will probably never have to suffer through the post 9/11 crap that we did, and that's a very good thing. But you are going to have crappy jobs that don't pay very well. You are going to be treated like dirt by management. Suck it up, work hard, fly safe, and make the best of it; eventually it will pay off and you WILL end up in a good job. If you're not willing to put up with what it takes to get to that level, then you should probably find a different career.
I know, life sucks on the bottom of the aviation ladder. It's one of those things you just have to live with for a while and suck it up. My career has been similar, probably worse than yours, as were many others.
I graduated college in August 2001, just one month before 9/11 happened. I could not get a commerical flying job to save my life. I took a part time customer service job at an FBO and another at a regional airline to pay the bills while I worked on my CFI and CFII. In 2003, I got my first CFI job paying $10/flight hr. They had only 1 student for me and there were 6 other new CFI's who were waiting to get students, so I had to look for another job.
I looked all over the country for another job and finally got a CFI job in Kentucky. It was horrible, with a terrible, venegeful manager and an owner who falsified the maintenance records on his airplanes. I made $10,000/year doing that, not even enough to live on. I also flew traffic watch part time in a C-172 with lousy maintenance. I had an engine failure 600ft above the ground on takeoff at night time, with passengers onboard and barely made it back to the airport. And I did that for $10/flight hr. After almost crashing due to lousy maintenance, I quit that job.
The next year I landed a CFI job in Phoenix that paid me $13,000/year, but at least the management was good and the planes were maintained. I sweated my ass off every single day in the afternoon Phoenix heat.
Finally, after I had 1400TT, I got a call from Scenic Airlines and went to work in a noisy, unpressurized turbo prop that I had to do the flight attendant briefings bent over in a hot plane that I couldn't even stand up in. It wasn't glamorous, but at least the managment was nice, the MX was good, and I enjoyed it. But it still only paid me about $19,000/year.
After a year of that, I moved to Detroit, MI and flew on-demand jet cargo in 40 year old airplanes for what turned out to be another lousy company. Just imagine having to hand load 5000 pounds of metal parts into the back of an airplane while bent over in south Texas heat and humidity with no air conditioning; you were soakin wet with sweat by the end. Then we had to fly to Canada where we would land on an icy runway with no thrust reversers and unload it in rain and freezing temperatures. And we did stuff like that a lot!
The next year I was able to transfer to the company's DFW base which gave me some sort of a personal life, but no raise in pay and no safer flying. That job paid me the hefty amount of $30,000/year plus per diem and I did it for about 2 years.
Finally, after about 5 years of suffering like this, moving around the country 5 times, and earning barely enough money to live on, I got a lucky break and made it to a job flying an MD-80 that I'm very happy at with the potential to make a pretty good living.
My point is...this is what you have to do to make it in this industry. Most of the new guys will probably never have to suffer through the post 9/11 crap that we did, and that's a very good thing. But you are going to have crappy jobs that don't pay very well. You are going to be treated like dirt by management. Suck it up, work hard, fly safe, and make the best of it; eventually it will pay off and you WILL end up in a good job. If you're not willing to put up with what it takes to get to that level, then you should probably find a different career.
Last edited by daytonaflyer; 03-30-2008 at 09:50 AM.
03-30-2008, 10:40 AM
#109
Property of Scheduling
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Bus driver
Posts: 2,573
I'm here to entertain i guess... Not really sure which part cracked you up. We both know I do my complaining on the company forum- where *hopefully* people see both sides.
Professional pilot- have you looked at fractionals? Even without the TJPIC we have had a good number of 9E Fo's go to netjets.
03-30-2008, 11:56 AM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 110
This attitude, possessed by thousands before you, is why PCL and the regionals in general are the way they are.
YOU want change? YOU fight for it. What do you do for the union?
"Oh, it's not fair I should have to volunteer...wah wah wah."
Man up, sunshine. Life ain't freaking fair. You want a better life, use the tools available to you. Become the change you want to see.
Until then, shut the &^(!* up. You know who cares about your own benefit? You. Enjoy being an army of one. Phil, Clive and David will pick you off one at a time.
YOU want change? YOU fight for it. What do you do for the union?
"Oh, it's not fair I should have to volunteer...wah wah wah."
Man up, sunshine. Life ain't freaking fair. You want a better life, use the tools available to you. Become the change you want to see.
Until then, shut the &^(!* up. You know who cares about your own benefit? You. Enjoy being an army of one. Phil, Clive and David will pick you off one at a time.
Why? Because too many fellow pilots are like you.
You are the exact REASON pilots in this industry are looking out for number one. Rather then support each other and treat each other with respect, when a fellow pilot is struggling with whatever it may be, you've got to go kicking him down telling him to "man up". Like you're some kind of macho man bully on the playground. You're the one who needs to shut up.
If we, as PILOTS, are going to build strong UNIONS, then we need leaders who are mature, professional and RESPECTFUL. We will not win the war against management for pay and work rules when we're waging wars against each other.
When you push things on people in a forceful manner, you are pushing them away from what is RIGHT in this industry.
Trust me, I've been in Propilots position at PCNL's stepchild TP carrier. I was told to MAN UP and grow a pair and tough it out. All that does is tick you off more and make you want to do your own thing, for your own good, and say screw everybody else. It does nothing to unite pilots and build a strong Union.
I was in a leadership position in the military, and people with your attitude don't last long. Eventually it will catch up with you. Lead by example, not by force.
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