SJS - The Career Killer (tv spot)
01-11-2006, 01:27 PM
#41
New boss = Old boss
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
Originally Posted by pilotwifey
In my opinion, the industry should considered possible hiring and advancing on the basis of actual skill, and not just experience alone.
Also- hope my grammar and spelling is acceptable, didn't realize that you pilots were such sticklers for that sort of thing!
Also- hope my grammar and spelling is acceptable, didn't realize that you pilots were such sticklers for that sort of thing!
One of the first things on the agenda when pilots started unionizing was the seniority system. Management just can't be trusted. I know that "squeaky wheels" would get screwed (more than usual) if the system was merit based.
01-11-2006, 02:10 PM
#42
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by pilotwifey
In my opinion, the industry should considered possible hiring and advancing on the basis of actual skill, and not just experience alone. Such a system would not only ensure that the most skilled pilots retained the most important positions in aviation, but would also breathe fresh air into the industry. History has shown that competition breeds progress, and I would love to see the older, experienced, and endlessly complaining pilots worried about a "newbie" competing with him for his position.
!
!
The reality is that he the junior puke, along with the "gray beards" are protected from A** kissers by the seniority system. Just look around the forum, there all all kinds of guy's who would stab your husband in the back just to get his entry level (poor paying) job.
You probably couldn't help notice the debate on these boards about pilot pay and the trends and why its happening. Not to cover old ground or start another debate as to how to stop the trend or if its possible, the seniority system that gives your husband his place on line for upgrade also keeps us all from cutting each others throats to get the best job/seat/trips.
01-11-2006, 03:58 PM
#43
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 40
Pilot wifey, that's just plain crazy talk. Most pilots (all older pilots) have no experience outside the cockpit. Subsequently, they have no concept of a free market economy or the merit system. The older the pilot, the bigger the socialist he becomes. They believe that the government should regulate the industry, all pilots should be paid $200,000 +, no pilot should fly more than 16 days a month, no plane should be built with less than 150 seats, and that the airlines should fix the ticket prices to support these wages and work rules. They have no concept of the fact that higher ticket prices would cause fewer people to travel, fewer planes to be built, and therefore fewer pilot jobs.
Of course, the senior pilots don't care about fewer pilot jobs. This being a seniority based industry, they'll still have their paychecks.
If only it could be 1971 again.
Of course, the senior pilots don't care about fewer pilot jobs. This being a seniority based industry, they'll still have their paychecks.
If only it could be 1971 again.
01-11-2006, 05:19 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B747FO
Posts: 148
Sad but True
Originally Posted by dckozak
The reality is that he the junior puke, along with the "gray beards" are protected from A** kissers by the seniority system. Just look around the forum, there all all kinds of guy's who would stab your husband in the back just to get his entry level (poor paying) job.
You probably couldn't help notice the debate on these boards about pilot pay and the trends and why its happening. Not to cover old ground or start another debate as to how to stop the trend or if its possible, the seniority system that gives your husband his place on line for upgrade also keeps us all from cutting each others throats to get the best job/seat/trips.
You probably couldn't help notice the debate on these boards about pilot pay and the trends and why its happening. Not to cover old ground or start another debate as to how to stop the trend or if its possible, the seniority system that gives your husband his place on line for upgrade also keeps us all from cutting each others throats to get the best job/seat/trips.
01-11-2006, 05:44 PM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
I've read this thread with interest...and mostly a smile. I agree with the gentleman that said something to the effect that experience doesn't necessarily equate with quality. I'm one of those Captains/Instructors that does new-hire interviews and training for my airline. I've seen guys with 5000 plus hours and several jet type ratings that couldn't hold altitude in the sim to private standards or explain the basics of an instrument departure procedure, yet had one of the 700 hour wonders not only nail his written exam and technical interview, but handfly an engine-out ILS without the FD in level D sim (for the first time in his life) so tight that you wondered if the sim froze up. I've also seen the reverse. It totally depends on the individual. Most of our interview is made up trying to learn what the candidate is like as a person...are they trainable, honest, dependable, easy to get along with, and can we trust them when we aren't looking.
The airline world has changed and will continue to do so. I agree with the gentleman who indicated most airline pilots can't understand that due to lack of experience in competitive business environment. I've jumpseated in the flightdeck many times (as most of us have) with the disgruntled senior captain who's had his pay cut from $350K per year to $175K. A lot have no concept of pay outside of the industry. One in particular thought all middle managers in fortune 500 companies made at least $250K per year. He was upset that he now made less than that (his real problem was paying for both the first, second, and current trophy wife, the two houses, one condo, and vacation house, three luxury cars, the 50ft yacht in FL, the T206 on floats, and two kids in college on his "reduced" $230K per year - no kidding). The current US News and World Report list the Airline Pilot Profession as the 14th best paying in the US at about an average of $110K. It is bested by fortune 500 CEO's, some specialized medical professions, and a few others. Most doctor's, attorneys, accountants, dentists, corporate VP's make less or about the same as we do. And I do mean us, as in regional airline pilots. My wife is a Ph.D. Makes $80K per year working for her hospital. Sure the new guys don't make much, but the guys with five and six years seniority or more are earning close to $80k in general and you're still off 14 days a month. I left Corporate America as an IT Director making $105K yr. in California. I worked for 15 years to get there averaging 65 hrs a week, usually six days a week. Today I make $30 grand less. But I just got done with five days off. I wouldn't trade this job for the world. I was laid off of my old job as a director. Today I'm senior enough with my airline (top 20%) that the airline would have to fail (or I get real stupid) for me to be out of a job.
The Internet has changed the world. When a customer can click on "show me the lowest price" and buy their airline ticket, we become and are a commodity business. The company who can move seats from point A to point B the cheapest will always be the survivor/market driver. And unfortunately for the "legacy" carriers Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, Frontier, and other "discounters" have rose in market share to the point where they can drive pricing almost everywhere. The customer won't pay for our old salaries, pensions, benefits, lifestyle, work rules (I spoke with one American Airlines captain the other day lamenting the fact he was going to have to fly more than 40 hours this month!) because they don't have too! So you want to keep your job, you work for less money or more hours or both. Period. And don't think that fat B737 salary at SWA (right now compared to everyone else) will stay there. Because before long some airline will come along and do it cheaper and a group of captains will be willing to fly for them for $120K per year instead of $180K (as is proven at USAir, JetBlue, etc). Which by-the-way is still a higher salary than most doctor's, attorneys, accountants...
Bottoming line, where else are you going to go to have this much fun for as few hours work that you put in? Selling Real Estate? Please...
The airline world has changed and will continue to do so. I agree with the gentleman who indicated most airline pilots can't understand that due to lack of experience in competitive business environment. I've jumpseated in the flightdeck many times (as most of us have) with the disgruntled senior captain who's had his pay cut from $350K per year to $175K. A lot have no concept of pay outside of the industry. One in particular thought all middle managers in fortune 500 companies made at least $250K per year. He was upset that he now made less than that (his real problem was paying for both the first, second, and current trophy wife, the two houses, one condo, and vacation house, three luxury cars, the 50ft yacht in FL, the T206 on floats, and two kids in college on his "reduced" $230K per year - no kidding). The current US News and World Report list the Airline Pilot Profession as the 14th best paying in the US at about an average of $110K. It is bested by fortune 500 CEO's, some specialized medical professions, and a few others. Most doctor's, attorneys, accountants, dentists, corporate VP's make less or about the same as we do. And I do mean us, as in regional airline pilots. My wife is a Ph.D. Makes $80K per year working for her hospital. Sure the new guys don't make much, but the guys with five and six years seniority or more are earning close to $80k in general and you're still off 14 days a month. I left Corporate America as an IT Director making $105K yr. in California. I worked for 15 years to get there averaging 65 hrs a week, usually six days a week. Today I make $30 grand less. But I just got done with five days off. I wouldn't trade this job for the world. I was laid off of my old job as a director. Today I'm senior enough with my airline (top 20%) that the airline would have to fail (or I get real stupid) for me to be out of a job.
The Internet has changed the world. When a customer can click on "show me the lowest price" and buy their airline ticket, we become and are a commodity business. The company who can move seats from point A to point B the cheapest will always be the survivor/market driver. And unfortunately for the "legacy" carriers Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, Frontier, and other "discounters" have rose in market share to the point where they can drive pricing almost everywhere. The customer won't pay for our old salaries, pensions, benefits, lifestyle, work rules (I spoke with one American Airlines captain the other day lamenting the fact he was going to have to fly more than 40 hours this month!) because they don't have too! So you want to keep your job, you work for less money or more hours or both. Period. And don't think that fat B737 salary at SWA (right now compared to everyone else) will stay there. Because before long some airline will come along and do it cheaper and a group of captains will be willing to fly for them for $120K per year instead of $180K (as is proven at USAir, JetBlue, etc). Which by-the-way is still a higher salary than most doctor's, attorneys, accountants...
Bottoming line, where else are you going to go to have this much fun for as few hours work that you put in? Selling Real Estate? Please...
01-11-2006, 05:51 PM
#46
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fun ??
Originally Posted by flyfastmwl
Bottoming line, where else are you going to go to have this much fun for as few hours work that you put in? Selling Real Estate? Please...
SkyHigh
01-11-2006, 06:43 PM
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Married - no kids. I read it. And while I agree with most of what he said regarding "pilot", if you took "airline" out an substituted "auto manufacturer" or "computer maker" or "retailer" or...you could have exactly the same comments about that company. The grass is not greener. If you love flying, being a pilot is a great job. If you don't, then it isn't. Find something else. Piloting is what it is, regulations, oversight, long hours away from home, proficency check's, ramp checks...
I admit after six years in the biz I'm still surprise at the number of pilots that hate it, but won't change...I guess the money and time off is still to good...
I admit after six years in the biz I'm still surprise at the number of pilots that hate it, but won't change...I guess the money and time off is still to good...
01-11-2006, 08:20 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Jungle Jet
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by flyfastmwl
The Internet has changed the world. When a customer can click on "show me the lowest price" and buy their airline ticket, we become and are a commodity business.
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