SkyHigh

In the automation world experience means nothing.

SkyHigh

JustAMushroom

Having flown with many hew hires in recent months I can say there is not a real relationship between total time and ability. Howerver, new hire CFI's and/or rich kids who flew their mommies bonanza around are usually way behind and (even if they are not behind) thinking about something other than their immediate job. FO's who have life experience AND flying experience usually think ahead, anticipate, and are more involved..and therefor SAFER!

It's common sense, but experience means everything!

dckozak

You had better hope (when you are onboard) a computer can "learn" how to do a x-wind landing, or correct and adjust when sliding sidways on a slick runway; or ever better, decide not to land when conditions warrent a divert. There is no substitution for experience. Maybe it will take a major accident to convice (you?) but safety cannot be bought or programmed into a computer!!

fireman0174

I hope you're kidding, because if you are not then you really don't have a grasp of the real world of flying.

Eric Stratton

Mike I know your post was a joke but how do you feel about pilots that give up some of their scope so that they can get more pay?

mike734

My opinion on this matter is pretty meaningless of course but I'll give it a shot.

Some say scope language is virtually unenforceable so why not go without it for more pay (or less of a cut). Some say scope is the most important thing in a contract. I say the only thing that matters is the intent of the management running the airline.

ALPA contracts are virtually unenforceable anyway. When you hear someone say, "They can't do that!" you know you are listening to a naive person. The bottom line is that management can do anything they want, anytime they want, for as long as they want or until an arbitrator, and ultimately a judge, say so.

It is one of the worst parts of the Railway Labor Act. The act is designed to keep the trains rolling (airliner flying). Any minor (read most) disputes must be handled for an arbitrator. Anyone who has been through an arbitration readily understands why people often say arbitration is arbitrary. Only major disputes will be looked at by a judge. This can take a year or more. So really, an airline can do what they want. The only other way to enforce the contract is by pilots making their dissatisfaction know. For example, if the company said, "From today forward all pilots will be required to stand by at the airport on reserve," they could do it and terminate anyone who did not comply. The pilots would object, of course, and create havoc. It would not be a very good way to run a business but they could do it.

Scope is important but I don't think it is very easy to write language that would slow a company down if they were intent on violating the language if they really wanted to. Mesa and J. Ornstein is an example of a company and leader with no regard for pilots or contractual language. He just does what he wants. If you have ever been subject to one of his temper tantrums you know what I mean. (Boy I keep digressing from the question)

Bottom line: Keep the pay and give up work rules is always the best course of action on the short term. It is easier to get work rules back.

Joeshmoe

I'm with you Punkpilot. I'm a captain with more hours than most of these babies on here and I DON'T blame it all on the new guys. Funny how these 40 and 50 year old guys/gals on here blame the kids who were still wearing diapers while they watched pay cut after pay cut and did nothing about it. If you experienced a pay cut and got out, good for you. If you didn't you have NO room to cry now because you made your bed. You could easily have left back then. I stayed and yes I hate the pay cuts but I take responsibility for not leaving, not placing vicious blame on the news guys. Taking responsibility for some of it seems like a taboo topic with some of you guys.
Then again there's GOT to be something wrong with you if all these "newbies" pi$$ you off yet you still linger on these boards complaining. (shaking head).

Punkpilot48

thanks sometimes it gets lonley when you put your opinion up on here

TSA-emb145-f/o

you guys are right when it comes to experience in the a/c and abillities to make discisions, but do you really think us "new guys" passed our checkrides with luck? I know of several washout cfi guys who just "didnt" happen to make it, I was 19 at the time of interview, hired to fly the 145... I acually feel more respect than hostillity for the abilities I have and for the abilities I have expressed to get this far... I thought If I could bypass cfi than I would. You can only gain so much experience from doing pattern work all day..... My way of gaining experience is Sittin right where I am.... ......

Punkpilot48

thats my point exactly