saab2000

I did fly there 'til I was furloughed 4 years ago. Got recalled but turned it down because I upgraded here.

Anyway, while my company is a good one now in many ways, CRM was addressed, litterally, in our Indoc class with, "Don't be an @$$hole". That hardly constitutes CRM training. And I doubt it's much better at other 'regionals' where a lot of the training is under duress and is often 'home study' anyway.

I know that it's better at major airlines and I suspect in the military as well. But the regionals' concept of what constitutes CRM has a long way to go to match.

As far as Multi-Crew training, I stand by what I said.

Ziggy

Truely what is CRM? For me the way you learn CRM is performance based. This is where policies and procedures are integreted into scenerio's in sim training. Sure you have that 1-3 hr classroom presentation about what CRM is, but you don't truely learn or utilize it until your on the flightdeck.

As far a MCL goes, this may bode well for other countries. But this would be a slap in the face, DIVE to the bottom for U.S. pilots. I hope the unions are watching this subject, because if they don't address this they'll never get compensation back to where it needs to be.

chitownpilot

MCPL.......looks to me to be a pilot factory PFT product's wet dream.

saab2000

This concept of training pilots from zero is not unprecedented. Military pilots are all trained like that.

Second, major airlines used to advertise for pilots with private certificates and even candidates with no experience.

Think outside the box.

btwissel

yes, back in the 60s, when there were no pilots left from WWII and Korea to hire, and the Nam vets hadn't started flying in the jungle yet. there was no supply, so the result was ab initio.

now there is a supply of pilots, so there is no need for that here.

and if you mean intl airlines CRM is better, i'm not sure how "keep your piehole shut, i'm the captain!" constitutes better CRM (see KLM Tenerife)

saab2000

That was the '70s. I can assure you it is different nowadays exactly because of accidents like that and in particular that accident.

Also, it's not much different today in some airplanes.

We had one (who is thankfully no longer with our company) who told the F/O he was flying when the F/O was still in diapers. That was when he basically closed the whole NYC airspace because of his own incompetence.

Anyway, thankfully the whole concept of CRM and what it is has improved a lot in the past 20 years.

Oh, and FWIW, even though my aviation roots are in Europe, I still think the US has the safest aviation there is. But there are still things we can learn from them. And them from us.

Spartan07

I whole heartedly agree saab2000. We should definitely use the U.S military's pilot training as a great example of how to do things. But guess what? the multi-crew license isn't anywhere close to being like the military's ab initio training.

In the military pilots are trained from day one (after an extreme screening process) to be pilots, not a part of a crew. They train with an instructor and are taught to operate the aircraft on their own and then get cut loose to solo just like almost any other student pilot. Once they complete their initial training and are competent aviators the ones who will be flying in crew environments are then trained with emphasis on the crew concept. Every pilot in the military (besides being an officer) is an aviator first, they just happen to either be flying a C-5 or an F-16. Both pilots can and do operate as individual pilots.

ehaeckercfi

Being trained from day 1 as an airline pilot is great, if all you ever do is fly airlines. But what happens when sh*t really hits the fan? crm goes out the window when the captain is dead because some kind of huge bird came through the windscreen. Somehow it also affected the autopilot. What now? You actually have to fly the airplane, and do everything yourself, not call for the things you want. Every airline pilot should have a good foundation of basic stick and rudder, seat of the pants flying to fall back on, just in case. You will NOT gte that kind of training in some "fast track" airline program.

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HercDriver130

Yea lets not equate some MPL lic program to that which US Military and many foreign military pilots go thru. And before I get flamed let me state that I in NO way infer that military training or civilian training is better...its simply different. I will say that I believe that military training gets pilots up and trained to a higher level earlier... but after years of flying and training I think the playing field is leveled. In my opinion the main difference is that mil guys are generally exposed to much more complex acft earlier and the training programs are extremely structured which helps later in 121 type training programs.

LoudFastRules

One thing I think we call all be certain of is that any new program introduced in the USA will be forced to absolutely minimize costs (while boosting profits for the providers). It will be full of paperwork and boxes to be checked, and light on useful (expensive) training.