Comair updates?
11-10-2008, 05:55 PM
#9741
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: awkward & cramped
Posts: 340
Allright everyone take a step back and quit looking at the tree and let's start looking at the forest.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
11-10-2008, 06:25 PM
#9742
Furlough line holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ2, ATR, CRJ7, E145, 737
Posts: 1,845
Allright everyone take a step back and quit looking at the tree and let's start looking at the forest.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
Ok, if the company really really really really wanted flex line so badly..if it was an operational NECESSITY..they would give up a lil something to get it. They will DISCUSS NOTHING with ALPA aside flex line. NOTHING. That tells me, they want it, but if they don't get it..no big deal.
Let me say it again
FLEX LINE, WILL ONLY SAVE 40-60 PILOT JOBS.
PERIOD
I am a furloughed Comair pilot and I 100% approve and support of ALPA in their refusal to resign that LOA. Where does it end?
Where are all the snap back and fleet guarantees??
Oh..that's right bankruptcy!
Where is the competitiveness and financial streamlining from the concessions and freezes??!?!?!?!?
OHHHHHHH That's right we're still furloughing, and Comair has been about the same since those were voted in by the pilot group.
Get it through your skulls, a Company can be PLENTY successful without paycuts. They'll find a way to get the airplanes, they'll find away to grow. But if they can convice a bunch of scared silly pilots that they MUST give up some HARD EARNED WAGES, then why not try it?
It's management 101
Think about how much we cost on an hour flight....
10 year Captain
73 dollars + 1.55 per diem
5 year FO
38 dollars + 1.55 per diem
10 year FA
What..20? + 1.55 per diem
$135.65 for crew cost from CVG - CMH let's say.
Sure go ahead and add insurance costs and 401K. It's PEANUTS people!
Not even a ticket.
11-10-2008, 06:25 PM
#9743
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 243
Regarding this ASAP situation, I spoke with our MEC Chair, and he brought up a few good points. The Delta pilots lost their ASAP program for the same reasons we did. Parallel investigations. American is in the same boat. Why should we submit ASAP reports when we can just submit an ASRS report and not risk getting disciplined by the company and still get the same certificate protection? If the company wants to have a true safety culture then they will get ASAP back. Also, Delta is getting thier ASAP back according to our MEC chair with a side letter that will prohibit "parallel investigations". This is how ASAP was intended to operate. When they get their ASAP program back, Delta will require all the connection carriers to have an ASAP program. The only way we will be able to fly for Delta will be to get it back. Unless they liquidate us, I think we will be getting it back.
He also said our fleet is right where our agreement says it should be. The new Mesaba aircraft were already slated to be "awarded" from a northwest deal 16 months ago. It wasn't a surprise. We haven't lost any more aircraft than was planned more than a year ago. They are letting the leases expire on the 50's and even one 70 is set to expire, but we'll see if they return it.
As far as a merger, there are no plans for one now with Mesaba. A merger with Compass is not likely as they are considered Northwest pilots and are represented by the Northwest MEC. A merger with Mesaba could happen, but management will fight it for the benefit of whipsaw. It may be forced if three conditions are met. I can't remember all three, but the first two are like equipment, and commonality of dispatch, maintenance, scheduling, etc... They are already heading in that direction as we had a Pinnacle 900 in the hangar today and we will surely be working on Mesaba equipment in the future. It doesn't make sense to have separate scheduling, dispatch, and maintenance from a cost perspective, which is what management is all about.
The flex line value saves the company 3-4 million a year. This is because when the lines go over 72 hours, the sick calls go up and they start paying out that money for people not working. When you call in sick, they now pay 2 people to do that trip - one at home and one in the seat. I guess when the lines get up into the 80's, people start making adjustments to their schedules using sick time. Either that, or they get sick a lot more from all that flying and exposure to passengers!
I for one wouldn't mind at all having a 76 hour line if I had 16 days off every month, but my 76 hour line gives me exactly 0 additional days off compared to my 84 hour lines of the past and sometimes less - unless you consider 29-34 hours in ALB or PWM a day off.
Remember, I'm just repeating what the MEC chair told me in our 15 minute conversation. He dispelled rumors, told ALPA's side of the ASAP story and was willing to answer any questions I had. They will be in ops all this week. I suggest if you see one to sit down with them and get ALPA's side. They may not be communicating that well, but it was good to get to talk with them and hear something besides the company's twisted version of the story.
11-10-2008, 06:27 PM
#9744
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,197
Allright everyone take a step back and quit looking at the tree and let's start looking at the forest.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
-First, the company wants the flex line value, but the union wants Cola's and early retirements. The company REALLY REALLY wants flex line values, the union says no. Whammo! more furloughs and downgrades.
Remember, the company has to offer a very attractive package with all the trimmings to get the senior guys to take early ret. Ergo, the early ret. won't save them that much. Also, by using flex line values, they have the flexibility (oooh there's a semblance!) to raise and lower it while keeping everyone staffed. Is that the only solution? No, of course not. But our union seems to be playing this all or nothing mentality.
- This dovetail's to my next point, that 90 going to Mesaba is a warning shot. The higher ups at Delta are not pleased with the dismissal (nor am I) of the ASAP program. To just throw away an invaluable resource of safety to prove a point is reckless and Atlanta sees it as such. I don't necessary disagree with the unions view of the incident in question, just their actions. This "I'm going to take my ball and go home" mentality has got to end. To throw 1400 pilots to the wind to prove a point is just wrong.
This ship is not sinking, but it has sprung a leak. We can still plug it up, but it will take negotiations, give and take, adjusting to the national economic situation, picking our battles, use the proper arsenal, the right tool for the right job...
Oh yeah, and an ounce of common sense won't hurt either.
My two cents...a penny's worth anyway.
Personally I think our union doesn't have as much air in their chests as they think they do. I think the ship is sinking, and I think the union and the company have tried to negotiate(didn't work,) the pilot group has definitely given enough(I won't give anymore, I will quit first,) and I believe they have picked the battles the best they could. So as far as the proper arsenal and the tools for the job, I got nothin. It equates to the same dirty politics that have plagued this company for years. Even union guys are leaving their positions, because they are fed up. So you are left with the real senior guys that have been here forever against DS. Just as Delta won't give Comair the time of day, DS will not give in to our senior guys. Guarantee it!
11-10-2008, 06:29 PM
#9745
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 243
MC also said he doesn't believe that we will be liquidated, sold off, or anything drastic. It helps my sanity to believe him.
Man my last post was long. Sorry about that.
On a side note, I was in DCA today and an Air Canada RJ crew was saying something about their crew meals before they went down the jetway. If they can serve crew meals and stay in business, we're doing something wrong! Seems like the U.S. is the lowest paying country for pilots.
Man my last post was long. Sorry about that.
On a side note, I was in DCA today and an Air Canada RJ crew was saying something about their crew meals before they went down the jetway. If they can serve crew meals and stay in business, we're doing something wrong! Seems like the U.S. is the lowest paying country for pilots.
Last edited by Spooledup; 11-10-2008 at 06:38 PM.
11-10-2008, 06:35 PM
#9746
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,197
I think it's time everyone takes a step back and makes some educated decisions base on the facts that they have. I am not saying to jump ship, but I think it's time to start activating plan B or C. Grab a vest because there aren't enough lifeboats for everyone.
11-10-2008, 06:38 PM
#9747
Furlough line holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ2, ATR, CRJ7, E145, 737
Posts: 1,845
Sanity to believe him? Do you think that he would know if we would be liquidated or not. I doubt it. Most often times when the doors close at an airline there is even memebers of managment that didn't know when it was coming if they even knew at all. Look at skybus. They were doing job fairs in GSO at 7:30 the night before they closed the doors.
I think it's time everyone takes a step back and makes some educated decisions base on the facts that they have. I am not saying to jump ship, but I think it's time to start activating plan B or C. Grab a vest because there aren't enough lifeboats for everyone.
I think it's time everyone takes a step back and makes some educated decisions base on the facts that they have. I am not saying to jump ship, but I think it's time to start activating plan B or C. Grab a vest because there aren't enough lifeboats for everyone.
It's already started happening guys..FAs and junior FOs have already abandoned ship
11-10-2008, 06:43 PM
#9748
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
About the same time Delta announced the merger and said they would like to be finished with the deal before Spring 2009.
A week after Mesaba becomes part of Delta, they announce the last Comair 900 going to Mesaba like it was spur of the moment or something.
Too much coincidence - I'll suggest that Delta knew in the spring that they were giving the last Comair 900 to one of NW's regionals. But I wonder why just the one Comair 900? Why not 3 or 5?
This was long before Comair conspired to dump ASAP, so I see no connection there.
I agree dumping ASAP is senseless- it's like dumping the checklist. Nothing gained, lots to lose, nobody wins.
11-10-2008, 06:52 PM
#9749
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
"You know, that was the time I was most frightened... waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eighteen hundred pilots went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks took the rest. Anyway, we delivered the bomb."
11-11-2008, 05:56 AM
#9750
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: CRJ Seat 13D
Posts: 349
Here's what the grizzled old 25-year Captains are telling the wee lad FOs in Comair Ops these days...
"You know, that was the time I was most frightened... waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eighteen hundred pilots went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks took the rest. Anyway, we delivered the bomb."
"You know, that was the time I was most frightened... waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eighteen hundred pilots went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks took the rest. Anyway, we delivered the bomb."
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