Comair updates?
09-20-2012, 03:48 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Comairs fate was not the result of a grudge but more the result of many actions over a long period of time. The strike however was one of the large pieces of the puzzle. When Delta purchased a 25% stake in Comair and added it to its feeder network it was a small piston engine airline. It rapidly grew after that to become one of the largest feeder airlines in the country. The pilots there began to thumb their noses at mother Delta ending in a strike that did little to improve what was already a industry leading offer. Its significant that many Delta pilots took a week out of their own time to monitor Delta airlines at every hub and out station to insure that Delta did not fly a single mainline section of struck work.
It was only the second strike in the history of Delta and the first in the US. Comair's decline started almost the day the strike was over. There were chances to lead the airline on a different direction but union leadership at Comair took the hard line at every opportunity. They felt they were to large and Delta needed them to badly. It is my understanding that there was not one single attempt to recall that leadership so they had the support of the pilot group. What followed were huge mistakes.
1. Complete refusal to negotiate a flow through. A outstanding one was offered that would have flowed a large number of Comair pilots to Delta.
2. Comairs euphoria at rumors Delta would outsource everything smaller then the 757. (Actual threat by RA). I personally had a young Comair pilot on the jumpseat asking me about our sims and how long the training program would be! We would have tossed him off except it was a nonstop. Zero support from the Comair MEC to refuse those aircraft.
3. Demands for a merger via ALPA merger policy after Delta purchased the rest of Comair in a stupid management move following the loss of Business Express to AMR. Comair MEC stated they would pursue DOH under that policy. Complete Refusal to discuss a prenup to get the Delta MEC onboard to try and get management to merge the airlines.
4. Lawson Letter (follows at the end) HUGE!
The letter was and still is posted on many bulletin boards throughout Delta. It angered Delta employees right up trough the VP of flight ops and beyond. The CEO discussed it at a lounge meeting. Comair forgot that some at the very top of Delta management had furloughed family members ect..
5. RJDC founded mostly by Comair pilots. Again no attempt by the comair pilot group to distance themselves from this organization.
6. Continued operation of the Comair MEC much like APA. Attitude that Delta could not survive without them. All of the above made the future predictable. The merger with NW was the final nail in the coffin. Delta airlines certainly could have dealt with Comair better however there was plenty of fault on both sides to go around. The Comair pilot leadership seemed bent on dumping gasoline on every fire. In the end they burned their house down and took a lot of good people with them in the fire.
Lawson letter follows:
It was only the second strike in the history of Delta and the first in the US. Comair's decline started almost the day the strike was over. There were chances to lead the airline on a different direction but union leadership at Comair took the hard line at every opportunity. They felt they were to large and Delta needed them to badly. It is my understanding that there was not one single attempt to recall that leadership so they had the support of the pilot group. What followed were huge mistakes.
1. Complete refusal to negotiate a flow through. A outstanding one was offered that would have flowed a large number of Comair pilots to Delta.
2. Comairs euphoria at rumors Delta would outsource everything smaller then the 757. (Actual threat by RA). I personally had a young Comair pilot on the jumpseat asking me about our sims and how long the training program would be! We would have tossed him off except it was a nonstop. Zero support from the Comair MEC to refuse those aircraft.
3. Demands for a merger via ALPA merger policy after Delta purchased the rest of Comair in a stupid management move following the loss of Business Express to AMR. Comair MEC stated they would pursue DOH under that policy. Complete Refusal to discuss a prenup to get the Delta MEC onboard to try and get management to merge the airlines.
4. Lawson Letter (follows at the end) HUGE!
The letter was and still is posted on many bulletin boards throughout Delta. It angered Delta employees right up trough the VP of flight ops and beyond. The CEO discussed it at a lounge meeting. Comair forgot that some at the very top of Delta management had furloughed family members ect..
5. RJDC founded mostly by Comair pilots. Again no attempt by the comair pilot group to distance themselves from this organization.
6. Continued operation of the Comair MEC much like APA. Attitude that Delta could not survive without them. All of the above made the future predictable. The merger with NW was the final nail in the coffin. Delta airlines certainly could have dealt with Comair better however there was plenty of fault on both sides to go around. The Comair pilot leadership seemed bent on dumping gasoline on every fire. In the end they burned their house down and took a lot of good people with them in the fire.
Lawson letter follows:
TO: Comair Pilots
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: December 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.
The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.
The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:
We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.
Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:
Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.
The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.
COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY 41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533
FROM: J.C. Lawson, Comair MEC Chairman
DATE: December 16, 2002
Your MEC met in CVG with the Delta MEC Chairman, Captain Will Buergey, at his request, to discuss preferential hiring of furloughed Delta pilots at Comair. Through this letter, I hope to dispel rumors and provide a more thorough understanding of the purpose and outcome of that meeting.
The Delta MEC, while in session at the bi-annual October Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood, Florida, formally directed the Delta MEC Chairman via resolution to meet with the Comair MEC Chairman to seek preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at Comair while allowing them to retain their Delta seniority.
The general philosophy held by the Comair MEC is:
We are sensitive to the regrettable plight of all furloughed pilots in our industry.
We encourage our management to hire pilots who seek a future at Comair.
We have formally approached Comair management and our management has agreed to preferential hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots.
We agree with our company's policy that requires prospective Comair pilots to resign their seniority at their previous carrier.
We believe our Company's industry-standard policy requiring seniority resignation is sound and wise. It promotes the general health and welfare of all Comair employees and serves to protect the future of our company.
At our meeting in CVG, Captain Buergey offered preferential hiring to Comair pilots if the Comair MEC would recommend to Comair management that they hire furloughed Delta pilots and allow them to retain their Delta seniority.
Your MEC responded that hiring any pilots at Comair who do not resign their seniority at their previous carrier gives rise to numerous substantive concerns. The Delta MEC's offer of (future) preferential hiring at Delta is not sufficiently substantive to overcome those concerns and solicit Comair pilots' support. We suggested three alternative concepts, any one or all of which might lead to a mutually beneficial solution:
Relax the Delta PWA, Section 1, seat restrictions imposed upon Comair and ASA that limit our growth in 70-seat and larger airframes.
Negotiate Delta Brand Scope language with Delta management that defines all Delta flying within the Delta revenue stream to be performed solely by Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots.
Negotiate a plan for future integration of our Delta, Comair, and ASA pilots seniority lists that fairly recognizes the efforts and contributions of all.
The Comair MEC stands ready to work with the collective MEC's to bring about change that makes sense in a challenging economic environment and works for all pilots who perform flying under the Delta brand. As we stated in the Tuesday, December 3rd meeting, our door is still open.
COMAIR MEC
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
SUITE 120 3940 OLYMPIC BOULEVARD ERLANGER, KY 41018
859-282-9016 FAX 859-283-5533
09-20-2012, 04:14 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: A350
Posts: 629
Sailing, that was an excellent breakdown of the breakdown. I'm sure the CMR guys would see it from a different perspective, but you nailed the view from the Delta side. It's like an accident investigation. There were many steps to the smoking hole.
09-20-2012, 04:41 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Port of Indecision and Southwest of Disorder
Posts: 587
I've been aware of the news of Comair's impending shutdown for a few weeks now, but I've not yet found words to express my thoughts about this. While I've long been frustrated by Comair's lack of ability to find a way to succeed, and haven't been shy about sharing this, I always hoped that someday things would get sorted out...though I knew that was a long shot.
For those who are still at Comair, I wish you the best. I withdrew my participation from the circus about three years ago. I miss flying professionally (though apparently not enough yet to get motivated enough to pursue other flying opportunities), but I don't miss the regional airline drama.
The thing I miss the most is the professionals I worked with. There's just nothing like being surrounded by people the caliber of the overwhelming majority of Comair's flight crewmembers, and many of the cabin crewmembers. Even the ramp agents, when they were Comair employees, were professional far beyond the norm for that position.
For those who are left without a chair when the music stops, and find themselves struggling with what to do next, I offer the following quote I originally posted in this thread in early August, 2008. I hope it communicates a different perspective than what you've heard from Comair management during the last seven years or so.
This quote was written to encourage people to look into opportunities they otherwise might not...business ownership being one of those opportunities. If I were re-writing this today, I'd probably de-emphasize that aspect a bit...largely due to the lack of quality businesses currently for sale due to the depressed economy, and a more challenging financing environment for new small business owners.
Still, there are employers out there who are desperate for people like yourselves, with the qualities you possess that transfer directly from the flight deck to the office desk.
Best wishes to everyone as you embark on your new future!
For context, this was written in response to a member here who asked "Any ideas on what someone can do with an aviation degree outside of aviation?" I've snipped a little out of the beginning of the quote because it's IRRELEVANT to the reason I'm sharing this today:
For those who are still at Comair, I wish you the best. I withdrew my participation from the circus about three years ago. I miss flying professionally (though apparently not enough yet to get motivated enough to pursue other flying opportunities), but I don't miss the regional airline drama.
The thing I miss the most is the professionals I worked with. There's just nothing like being surrounded by people the caliber of the overwhelming majority of Comair's flight crewmembers, and many of the cabin crewmembers. Even the ramp agents, when they were Comair employees, were professional far beyond the norm for that position.
For those who are left without a chair when the music stops, and find themselves struggling with what to do next, I offer the following quote I originally posted in this thread in early August, 2008. I hope it communicates a different perspective than what you've heard from Comair management during the last seven years or so.
This quote was written to encourage people to look into opportunities they otherwise might not...business ownership being one of those opportunities. If I were re-writing this today, I'd probably de-emphasize that aspect a bit...largely due to the lack of quality businesses currently for sale due to the depressed economy, and a more challenging financing environment for new small business owners.
Still, there are employers out there who are desperate for people like yourselves, with the qualities you possess that transfer directly from the flight deck to the office desk.
Best wishes to everyone as you embark on your new future!
For context, this was written in response to a member here who asked "Any ideas on what someone can do with an aviation degree outside of aviation?" I've snipped a little out of the beginning of the quote because it's IRRELEVANT to the reason I'm sharing this today:
Excellent posts, your perspective could be used more frequently around these parts.
Best wishes,
Lone Palm
09-20-2012, 04:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
I've snipped a little out of the beginning of the quote because it's IRRELEVANT to the reason I'm sharing this today:
Don't focus on what you can't do, focus on what you can. Or to put it another way, argue for your limitations and they will become yours.
I fly with a lot of pilots who tell me "This is all I've ever done, I don't know how to do anything else." To them I say this:
As airline pilots, so many skills and abilities become so ingrained in our nature over time, we forget we have them. Let me remind you about some of the skills and abilities you have that you may not realize...
You have the ability to multitask.
You have the ability to follow complicated written procedures precisely.
You have the ability to work in a team environment.
You have the ability to evaluate situations and make good decisions based on the information you've collected.
You have demonstrated a level of high responsibility for a multi million dollar piece of equipment.
You have the ability to work under pressure.
You have the ability to remain professional when dealing with the public.
You have the ability to represent your employer in a positive manner when the customer's perception of your employer is poor.
You have the ability to lead when necessary, and follow when appropriate.
You can dress in a professional manner.
You understand what "professionalism" means...at least most of us.
You have a demonstrated ability to function at a high level of autonomy in a complex environment, yet the still know when to recognize and utilize help when it is required.
YOU HAVE A DEMONSTRATED ABILITY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.
I put that in caps because it is critical in the business world. A wise Comair pilot once shared with me the following:
"One is paid commensurate with one's ability to solve problems."
These are some of the skills and abilities we use every day as airline pilots. As a business owner, I can tell you without reservation that these skills have value in the business world.
For those of us who are young, and starting out with a lot of debt, business ownership may not be an option at this point, but for those who are in a stronger financial position may benefit from looking at owning a business. There are headaches, to be sure, but there are rewards as well.
Early in my career as an airline pilot I used to ask "What kind of job does everyone do when they're not flying?" There's not a lot of good options for part time work with the profession we are employed in because of the schedules. Owning your own business gives you control of the schedule, and gives you the opportunity to work when you have time available.
For those who have an interest in owning a business, but don't really know where to start, check this out. Someday perhaps I'll be worthy of the PM function, and I'd be happy to answer questions for those who are interested in business ownership.
And no, I'm talking about real business ownership...not get rich quick, sign up with me and you'll be successful schemes. I have nothing to sell.
In summary...don't sell yourself short. Though Comair actively works to devalue the skills and abilities you bring to their operation, those skills have tremendous value nonetheless.
How many other employers out there can claim to have a workforce of 1477 scattered throughout the U.S. directly responsible to only eight supervisors?
You are an asset that has value outside the airline industry.
Don't focus on what you can't do, focus on what you can. Or to put it another way, argue for your limitations and they will become yours.
I fly with a lot of pilots who tell me "This is all I've ever done, I don't know how to do anything else." To them I say this:
As airline pilots, so many skills and abilities become so ingrained in our nature over time, we forget we have them. Let me remind you about some of the skills and abilities you have that you may not realize...
You have the ability to multitask.
You have the ability to follow complicated written procedures precisely.
You have the ability to work in a team environment.
You have the ability to evaluate situations and make good decisions based on the information you've collected.
You have demonstrated a level of high responsibility for a multi million dollar piece of equipment.
You have the ability to work under pressure.
You have the ability to remain professional when dealing with the public.
You have the ability to represent your employer in a positive manner when the customer's perception of your employer is poor.
You have the ability to lead when necessary, and follow when appropriate.
You can dress in a professional manner.
You understand what "professionalism" means...at least most of us.
You have a demonstrated ability to function at a high level of autonomy in a complex environment, yet the still know when to recognize and utilize help when it is required.
YOU HAVE A DEMONSTRATED ABILITY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS.
I put that in caps because it is critical in the business world. A wise Comair pilot once shared with me the following:
"One is paid commensurate with one's ability to solve problems."
These are some of the skills and abilities we use every day as airline pilots. As a business owner, I can tell you without reservation that these skills have value in the business world.
For those of us who are young, and starting out with a lot of debt, business ownership may not be an option at this point, but for those who are in a stronger financial position may benefit from looking at owning a business. There are headaches, to be sure, but there are rewards as well.
Early in my career as an airline pilot I used to ask "What kind of job does everyone do when they're not flying?" There's not a lot of good options for part time work with the profession we are employed in because of the schedules. Owning your own business gives you control of the schedule, and gives you the opportunity to work when you have time available.
For those who have an interest in owning a business, but don't really know where to start, check this out. Someday perhaps I'll be worthy of the PM function, and I'd be happy to answer questions for those who are interested in business ownership.
And no, I'm talking about real business ownership...not get rich quick, sign up with me and you'll be successful schemes. I have nothing to sell.
In summary...don't sell yourself short. Though Comair actively works to devalue the skills and abilities you bring to their operation, those skills have tremendous value nonetheless.
How many other employers out there can claim to have a workforce of 1477 scattered throughout the U.S. directly responsible to only eight supervisors?
You are an asset that has value outside the airline industry.
09-20-2012, 05:08 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
Sailing,
Thanks for taking the time to sum things up from one Delta pilot's perspective. As I've said before, I sure could have used that info back in 2003.
I have to agree with Cheap Trick, however, and add that your version and the Comair version I've heard are very different (keeping in mind that only 10% of my Captains even discuss this)
Much like the German and Russian histories of Stalingrad are very different, but they're still finding skeletons in the ground so there must be some truth somewhere in the middle.
You say it's not the result of a grudge, then list a number of grudges... are you saying it's the result of a lot of grudges?
Ultimately, was it Delta's or DALPA's decision that Comair had to go away?
Thanks for taking the time to sum things up from one Delta pilot's perspective. As I've said before, I sure could have used that info back in 2003.
I have to agree with Cheap Trick, however, and add that your version and the Comair version I've heard are very different (keeping in mind that only 10% of my Captains even discuss this)
Much like the German and Russian histories of Stalingrad are very different, but they're still finding skeletons in the ground so there must be some truth somewhere in the middle.
You say it's not the result of a grudge, then list a number of grudges... are you saying it's the result of a lot of grudges?
Ultimately, was it Delta's or DALPA's decision that Comair had to go away?
09-20-2012, 08:16 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
Sailing,
Thanks for taking the time to sum things up from one Delta pilot's perspective. As I've said before, I sure could have used that info back in 2003.
I have to agree with Cheap Trick, however, and add that your version and the Comair version I've heard are very different (keeping in mind that only 10% of my Captains even discuss this)
Much like the German and Russian histories of Stalingrad are very different, but they're still finding skeletons in the ground so there must be some truth somewhere in the middle.
You say it's not the result of a grudge, then list a number of grudges... are you saying it's the result of a lot of grudges?
Ultimately, was it Delta's or DALPA's decision that Comair had to go away?
Thanks for taking the time to sum things up from one Delta pilot's perspective. As I've said before, I sure could have used that info back in 2003.
I have to agree with Cheap Trick, however, and add that your version and the Comair version I've heard are very different (keeping in mind that only 10% of my Captains even discuss this)
Much like the German and Russian histories of Stalingrad are very different, but they're still finding skeletons in the ground so there must be some truth somewhere in the middle.
You say it's not the result of a grudge, then list a number of grudges... are you saying it's the result of a lot of grudges?
Ultimately, was it Delta's or DALPA's decision that Comair had to go away?
09-20-2012, 10:22 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: CRJ
Posts: 211
It was Delta's however the decision makers were often pilots at the management level. Comair managed to alienate both Delta management and DALPA. Management at Delta is like a Elephant, they never forget. The only other strike at Delta was the ground employees in Frankfurt running the IGS service. Do a google search and find out their fate. They also won their strike but lost the war.
09-20-2012, 10:54 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
So you strike or upset the King...update your resume because the powers to be will shut you down? As a Comair furlough...I was under the impression that Delta, DALPA, or a combination of both were upset with the "letters" not the strike for improvements in QOL, benefits etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to be saying that those who strike under Delta Airlines will see their inevitable fate. Not a feeling I would like to have as an employee operating within a CBA.
09-20-2012, 10:55 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,599
So you strike or upset the King...update your resume because the powers to be will shut you down? As a Comair furlough...I was under the impression that Delta, DALPA, or a combination of both were upset with the "letters" not the strike for improvements in QOL, benefits etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but your post seems to be saying that those who strike under Delta Airlines will see their inevitable fate. Not a feeling I would like to have as an employee operating within a CBA.
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