TonyWilliams

Is ALPA shrinking? Is that why they want SkyWest (and anybody else) so bad?

ALPA lost the Colgan vote recently, and has lost the SkyWest vote in the past. American, Southwest and UPS pilots are all represented by non-ALPA unions. I believe Fedex dropped ALPA at one point, and then voted them back in, is that right?

What about the US Airways pilots (2800 of them) that have started an effort to decertify ALPA (http://usairlinepilots.org/),

Also United pilots (http://www.pearlgroup.org/).

ASA and Comair pilots have combined to help fight ALPA (http://www.rjdefense.com/) (don't know many details on this one)

Any other groups actively trying to NOT be part of ALPA ?

BoilerUP

Other than the US Airways effort which was started after ALPA National refused to abdicate the independent arbitrator's decision on the integrated seniority list, everything you list is a small lunatic fringe...especially the RJDC.

You left one out...American Eagle Pilots Association http://www.aepa.org/

Airsupport

All of you anti-alpa guys make me laugh... you hate the very people who have made this industry safer for you to fly in. Alpa has been key in designing and forcing the faa to make changes that make the skies safer. What really irks me is even you guys who are against alpa are enjoying the benefits alpa brings. I work hard so you guys can stay on welfare and feed off my dues.

Humor me with this analogy if you will. Lets say me and a group of my friends built a basketball court for us to play on. The problem is they only place you are allowed to build one is on government property and since we did they say we have to let everyone play. well we cant change that so all we ask for is some donations so we can maintain the hoops, the paint, etc, etc... several people pay in so they can use it, and because they like the nice court we have provided for them, while others just come around, enjoy the court and then walk off without paying to help with the up keep. they enjoy playing, but don't think they need to pay to do it. One day the rim got bent on the basket ball hoop, after i did a 360 tomahawk dunk. All the people who were paying got their money together to fix the hoop. while it was being fixed the guys who didn't like paying complained and cried, wondering when it would be fixed...

here is the basis and facts from my story..

http://www.ntsb.gov/speeches/former/hall/jh980819.htm

Through ALPA’s participation in our investigations, you have shared your wealth of up-to-date operational experience with procedures, techniques and equipment. Through the years, you have been able to identify problem areas directly affecting pilots, such as:

• Approach design.
• ATC procedures.
• Unusual attitude recovery.
• Wind shear, and
• Wake turbulence.
• first-generation Ground Proximity Warning Systems,
• wind shear detection and pilot training,
• air traffic control communications,
• airport signage and lighting, and
• training and maintenance procedures for propeller engines.

Moreover, ALPA pilots and ALPA safety committees have routinely identified and proposed remedial actions for a variety of aviation safety issues. For example, ALPA experts have always worked closely with the NTSB and other aviation community specialists on air traffic control issues, forecasting and dissemination of severe weather information, instrument approach design and procedures, human performance, survival factors and airport safety.
The Air Line Pilots Association is by no means against the use of recorded data to advance air safety. In fact ALPA has written policies which accommodate, and even encourage, the use of such devices. With regard to cockpit and cabin sound recorders, policy language almost 40 years old states that, "ALPA representatives shall endeavor to obtain the maximum usefulness for such devices, while providing the greatest possible protection against the abuse and misuse of such devices by any government agency, carrier, or any other group". More recently, ALPA has been a proponent of expanding the number of recorded parameters on DFDR devices and has encouraged the adoption of Flight Operations Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs which analyze recorded data in order to advance flight safety. And ALPA is also assisting with a number of our major current investigations

http://home.att.net/~aircargosafety/Flight_Time.htm
http://www.laserinstitute.org/news/r...s/TMCVENES.php
http://www.eltoroairport.org/issues/alpa.html
http://www.thetracon.com/news/pr52400.htm

Infact alpa is working right now with congress and the faa to re-write the rest requirements and duty rules for all airline pilots. they have to have a report out in 18 months.

i could go on, and on, and on,,, just a google search will provide all the information you need. i know alpa isn't perfect, but they are what we have, and when it comes down to it, they are the best at what they do. so while all of you are out their bashing alpa, take a look around you and enjoy the benifits this evil union has brought you..

rickair7777

With a few exceptions, most of the anti-alpa people on this board are actually pretty rational and ask some pretty valid questions. Personally I think you come off as a tad on fanatical side...you listed all sorts of fringe benefits which alpa has been involved in (most of which occurred BEFORE deregulation, when alpa didn't confront the kinds of economic problems it does today). Sure they did some great stuff 30, 40, 50 years ago, but what have you done for me lately?

This industry certainly lends itself to unions, and we could all be better served by a single national union (or a very strong, very unified coalition of unions). I am leaning towards voting for alpa at SKW mainly for that reason alone.

But there's a reason that there is so much discontent...maybe it's time that alpa national listen up and try to adjust their course (prater has made some of the right noises, time will tell on the results).

travelJunky

You gotta smile when the only Pro things someone can say regarding ALPA are safety issues. Heard that one before. Like there are no other governing bodies on safety? Give me a break.

The sole economic purpose of any union is to limit supply for given demand, thus creating better work environment and pay. Odd that ALPA cannot even organize a strike... any judge will laugh and override it.

Airsupport

like i said in my post, i am not 100% happy with alpa and what they do. we still don't have a contract, asa still doesn't have a contract, and from what i can tell it may be a while before we do. but i am not so blind to not see what they have done for me. as bad as our contract is i cant imagine what it would be like if all we had were the far's rest requirements to go bye, or not being able to refuse an extension, etc, etc. you are right, the industry lends itself to a union. without a union we would all be at skybus flying an airbus for 60 grand a year.

i understand the discontent about alpa. i think alpa national is finally realizing that they have big problems and they have a lot of work to do to make things right.

RedeyeAV8r

Again Don't Blame ALPA, blame the Administration that supports ANit-Labor agendas.

What magic from ALPA do you expect?

rickair7777

I don't expect the administration or airline management to look after my interests. That is, however, the purpose of alpa. I'm not into "blaming" but rather communicating. There are lots of unhappy people out here in passenger-land...maybe an organization that intends to be "THE pilot's union" needs to know that.

skywatch

I came across this while googling ALPA and airline and safety - does anyone know if it is true? Sorry about the length. It is obviously very anti-union, and I don't care about the politics...I am just wondering if this is in fact a real event described accurately...

http://www.airlinesafety.com/Unions/Sisto.htm

The Chuck Sisto affair: Defending dangerous pilots

In October, 1947, American Airlines Captain Charles Sisto hitched a ride on an AAL DC-4 cockpit jumpseat, from Dallas to Los Angeles. For reasons beyond the comprehension of rational minds, he thought it would be a great joke to engage the controls gust lock, without telling the pilots.
Captain Jack Beck, who was flying that DC-4, began to gradually roll in more and more trim for the elevators, which seemed to be resisting the normal pilot inputs on the control wheel, required to maintain the assigned altitude.
Trimming, to relieve excessive pressure by the pilot on the controls, was accomplished by moving a small tab on the trailing edge of the elevators, which are panels hinged to the aft side of the horizontal stabilizer. When the trim tabs were moved upward, that in turn put downward pressure on the elevators. Downward pressure on the elevators would lift the tail of the airplane, and that in turn would lower the nose of the plane, causing it to descend.
However, with the gust lock on, the elevators did not respond to that input from the trim tabs. The trim tabs moved upward, as the trim control was changed by Captain Beck. That would have normally caused the elevators to move down, but because the controls were locked, they did not. As Captain Beck continued to roll in more and more elevator trim (moving that tab upward), it caused the plane to respond in the opposite manner, to which the pilot was commanding. As long as that gust lock was on, the trim tab being moved upwards would tend to make the plane climb. But with the gust lock off, the same action would tend to make the plane descend.
Additional trimming of that tab, while the gust lock was on, had the effect of winding a spring up tight, ready to suddenly release its pent up energy, whenever the gust lock might be moved back to the unlocked position.

And, that is precisely what happened when Captain Sisto finally decided his prank had gone far enough: He moved the gust lock lever back to the unlocked position, without telling the pilots what he had done.
That DC-4 responded immediately by plunging towards the New Mexico desert floor.
Because neither Captain Beck or Captain Sisto had their seat belts on, they were slammed into the cockpit ceiling with the force of that sudden and unexpected maneuver. Their heads collided with three of the four engine propeller feather buttons. The result was that the plane was spared a full-power dive, which would have undoubtedly led to the loss of the plane and all souls on board.
Had they not lost 75 % of the engine power, as the plane entered the dive towards the desert floor, that plane would probably have come apart before hitting the ground.
Fortunately, Captain Logan (flying the First Officer position) did have his seat belt fastened securely in place. As the plane reached the inverted portion of the unplanned outside loop, only about 400 feet above the desert floor, he rolled it upright with the ailerons and managed to regain control until they could slow below the redline speed and limp to an emergency landing, which saved all 54 lives on board.
"The aircraft was placed under lock and key in a hanger at El Paso until a complete and thorough examination could be made by the Board's investigators. The day following the accident the crew made preliminary statements which indicated that there might have been some difficulty with the automatic pilot, which all three pilots stated had been engaged just prior to the maneuver previously described. For this reason tests were made of the automatic pilot which included its operation in this aircraft in actual flight. No evidence was found of any structural failure or mechanical malfunctioning of the automatic pilot or any other component of the aircraft.
Supplemental statements made by the three pilots on October 15, 1947, indicated that the automatic pilot was not engaged at any time during the flight but that Captain Sisto, sitting on the jump seat, engaged the gust lock while the aircraft was in level flight. Captains Beck and Logan further stated they were not aware of his action at the time. The aircraft started to climb and when rolling the elevator trim tab control nose-down did not return the plane to level flight, Captain Beck turned to Captain Sisto and asked, "Is the automatic pilot on?" Upon receiving a negative reply, he thought of the possibility of the gust lock having become engaged in flight and reached for the trim tab control to neutralize it. Before this could be accomplished, however, Sisto released the gust lock lever, and it being spring loaded permitted the gust lock to return to the unlocked position. The elevator was then free to be moved by the trim tab which had been placed in an extreme upward or airplane nose-down position. The sudden and violent movement of the elevator surfaces to a down position, upon release of the gust lock, caused the aircraft to pitch down violently as previously described."
The passengers and stewardesses (yes, that was the correct nomenclature, in those days......), who did not have their seat belts fastened, were also thrown up against the ceiling. Fortunately, their injuries were only minor.
Of course that ended the pilot career of Captain Chuck Sisto----but only because American Airlines management and the CAB rejected the ludicrous defense of Sisto, by Dave Behncke, the President and founder of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).
Dave Behncke defended Sisto to the bitter end, by arguing that
"This incident could have been averted had the DC-4 been equipped with a properly designed gust lock system."
There you have it in a nutshell, what the original purpose of ALPA----the purpose which the founder of ALPA, Dave Behncke, saw as more important than all other considerations in the airline industry. More important than the safety of the trusting passengers who purchased their tickets with the full confidence and trust that the pilots would operate their plane with the highest of standards. Trusting passengers who believed their pilots had the kind of sound and rational judgment, which could fairly be expected of anyone who even aspired to be an airline pilot.
It was clear, from this and other bizarre behaviors of Dave Behncke, that ALPA was founded by a mental case who was incapable of discerning what was rationally and morally required of any person who would be hired to pilot airliners full of trusting passengers. Behncke only cared about power----the power to deny airline managements the right and ability to get rid of dangerous pilots. ...

rickair7777

A union (any union) does have a duty to defend each and every member in a disciplinary situation, regardless of the seriousness of the offense. Kind of like being entitled to a lawyer in the justice system.

I will say that during one of the SKW alpa info events, MEC members from another regional provided examples of pilots whose jobs had been saved by alpa...including showing up drunk multiple lines and doing lines of coke on duty, in flight. While I understand the need to defend these folks I do not think those are good examples of the "benefits" of alpa...I would consider those examples as necessary evils.