saab2000

I see your point, but this is part of why unions have a bad name and why business does not want to work with them. Defending the indefensible is something the union needs to re-examine. And the indefensible exists at every company. But some indefensible pilots and/or acts need to simply be treated as such, unless the pilot in question really sees the error or their ways and can be changed.

I flew with a pilot for a month last year who did something indefensible. I won't go into details except to say it was not safety related. After speaking with him about it he continued. I kept flying with him knowing that the company must know about his gig. Well, they did. Finally it came to a head and he was fired. I don't know what the role of our ALPA chapter was, but thankfully it wasn't pursued vigorously.

I don't want my union dues and good will being spent to defend the indefensible. I want it being spent to improve safety, negotiate good contracts (for all parties) and to improve the lives of the 99% of good pilots. Unfortunately, 99% of the union's resources go to 1% of the people, defending them or working against unfair company policies.


Just sayin'.....

texaspilot76

All these labor cries make me think of Karl Marx.

TonyWilliams

This thread sure took a different direction that I thought it might.

RedeyeAV8r

I like it when folks are content to pay their dues and sit back and say " Get me a good contract"............NOT!

Saab may I suggest that you volunteer for your local Grievance committee.

It will open your eyes. You will see both the good and bad side of Management. (Mostly Bad side)
You will serve your fellow Pilots and will get some personal satisfaction and gratitude of your fellow crewmembers along the way.

Are there some pilots who slip through the cracks? Sure, but that is the case in any Democratic system with "Due Process." ( O.J. comes to mind......politics didn't play a role in that did it?)

Without a ALPA or a Union you have NO due Process, you are an "AT Will" Employee and can be Fired for anything (or nothing). I for one prefer Due Process (Just Cause) over Draconianism (At Will): After all, we live in a Democartic society don't we?

Try not to be sucked into the rumors you hear in most discipline cases, because when you get down to the facts, most of the time they are untrue or vastly overstated!
I felt like you a long time ago. A friend suggested I get involved in ALPA. I finally did and have never looked back and I haver had my eyes opened very wide on more than one occasion. Believe me, it is the lesser of two evils by a long shot and without a doubt, you wouldn't want the job of a professional Pilot if it hadn't been for ALPA and all the Pilots who volunteered their time to better all of our careers.

All the Non-Union carriers out there still reap the benefits from work done by ALPA. Safety, Flight time duty time, Accident investigation and pro-pilot legislation.

RedeyeAV8r

First off MR Travel Junky, what is more important than Safety?

Ask yourself: What is the worst thing that can happen to an Air Carrier?

I'll give you a Hint: An Accident, especially when it involves severe injury or loss of life.

An to correct you yet again, The Sole purpose of a Union is to enhance and protect the Careers of it's members.

Another correction ALPA "can" organize a strike as long as it is within the LAW!

Do you not read the papers? ALPA attempted to have a strike authorized at strike at NWA and more recently ComAir. ALPA also tried in vain to help the NWA Flight attendents Union be released and allowed to strike. The Bankruptcy Judges dis-allowed it. (That is what an Anti-Labor administration will get you)
So NOW what exactly are you advocating? Was ALPA supposed to Break the Law? (BS as the law is) Remember what APA got us with the Sick out years ago. That little stunt cost all of us dearly.

Like I said before, it is easy to cast stones.

Riddle me this Batman: What do you think would have happend at UAL, USAIr NWA and DAL and the rest of the troubled properties during the recent bankruptcy proceedings if ALPA had not of been there?

Do you really think things would have turned out better?

No slight intended on the following organizations, but Name another Professional Pilot organization (APA, FPA(now defunct), SWAPA, IPA and IBT) that has done anything (without dove tailing on ALPA's efforts) to enhance this career?

I'll take ALPA, warts and all thank you!

texaspilot76

[quote=RedeyeAV8r;225946] Without a ALPA or a Union you have NO due Process, you are an "AT Will" Employee and can be Fired for anything (or nothing). I for one prefer Due Process (Just Cause) over Draconianism (At Will): After all, we live in a Democartic society don't we?

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"At Will", just like 95% of all jobs in this country.

I have to say you are mistaken on political and economic ideologies. "At will" is a characteristic of a capitalistic economy (which I believe you meant by democratic). Due process is more associated with a communist form of government, where the laborer is supreme.

Due process, for the most part, protects slackers from losing their job. I have many family members that were auto workers. People could do pretty much what they wanted and not get fired due to union protections. Ever wonder why new cars cost so much?

RedeyeAV8r

[QUOTE=texaspilot76;226003]
I believe you are mistaken. In the US we have certain rights when it comes to being accused of a crime in the court of Law.
We have the right to an Attorney.
We have the right to a fair trial judged by a jury of our peers.
In other words we are afforded "Due Process" which is hardly communistic.
Due process protects the individaul from a Police State form of Guilty until proven inncocent.
Again, hardly Communist. Do you think Citizens of China have due Process?

Unfortunately, when it comes to fairness in the work place, most places do not afford the employee Due Process, that is employees without Union representation.

I for one prefer Union representation over "I'm on mine own at the mercy of a managment with an agenda." I've Sat at the end of the Long green table and was dam happy to have ALPA representing me and my interests over the Company's.

Judging by your CRJ FO in your Avtar, I'll make an assumption that you are new to the industry and inexperienced in being simply Labor in the eyes of MGT.

Talk to me in a couple of years of flying the line, especially if you are involved in an incident.
(hopefully it won't happen) But if it does, Tell me which you would prefer to be.......and "AT Will" employee or a "Just cause" employee.
Good Luck , my friend, with your newly found career compliments of ALPA.

Wedge Buster

I agree that we can't expect management to look after our best interests. However it is our administration’s duty to act in the best interests of all of us as citizens (in our case they are not).

Wedge Buster

I’m just as frustrated as anyone with ALPA, but unions and governments are our best source of representation. Just because people are frustrated with the government does not mean that they would be better off without one, the same holds true with unions. If you are sick of the status quo… Change it! Vote for people who do have your best interests in mind and become active in ALPA and make your voice heard.

Do you throw a tool away when it becomes dull? NO you sharpen it!

Would you abandon your dog if got wet and muddy? NO you would wash it!

If your roof leeks do you need a new house? NO you just need to fix your roof!

Instead of trying to obliterate ALPA lets fix it! Lets make it work for us!

ToiletDuck

What about the other unions that fight so their pilots don't have to work in unsafe conditions?

I've started to think about unions more lately and am starting to feel that local unions, ie. netjets, are much more successful. They are more involved with their pilot group which tends to be the real reason for success.