ALPA(Union) and Airline Contract Negotiations
08-29-2007, 06:04 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
I find it quite interesting that ALPA represented carriers (and the pilot groups of these carriers) continue wasting time year after year in contract negotiations when nothing happens, while their Employeer (Airline) keeps dragging things out.
ASA: 5+ Years (Nothing to date)
Astar Air Cargo: 3 1/2 years (Nothing to date)
Trans States: 1 1/2 years (Nothing to date)
ComAir: 3+ years (back in 1999 received a deal LESS than what they were looking for after an 89 day strike)
MESA: What is their timeline going to be (3-4 years??)
The problem is, that the longer things take to negotiate, the more things are forgotten and the more things the pilot group becomes numb too. (Not management though) Thus, the pilot group will finally acquiesce for a pittance of what they originally were looking for because management can hold out longer when it comes to spending money. ( As a matter of fact, we all can hold out when it comes to spending more money for what we are getting now for less).
In addition, during LONG drawn out negotiations, the financial picture of the airline can change dramatically and even drastically. If an airline is successful and profitable, it is in their BEST interest to drag out negotiations until a down turn in business is foreseen, when they can say, "SEE" this is what we have Pilot Group, we really are not making money . . . so you better take this deal or none at all. The nature of the industry changes and so do the expectations of the pilot group.
There is no way negotiations should take more than 6 months. If they take longer than that, I believe a strike should be in order. It's best to strike when the company IS making money, because management's bonuses, profit sharing, salary, et el are tied into their salary.
In addition, the Airline when it's making money DOES have a way to avoid a potential loss of business. They will throw money at the problem. (The problem being, Pilot's Striking). This action by the airlines will diffuse the onset of a potential calamity in the short term.
When a company is in the financial doldrums, it is the worst time to strike because there IS no money to pay for increased salaries. Many times it is just easier for an airline (any business for that matter) to close its doors vs. deal with a union group that wants increased pay, QOL, better benefits, etc.
ASA: 5+ Years (Nothing to date)
Astar Air Cargo: 3 1/2 years (Nothing to date)
Trans States: 1 1/2 years (Nothing to date)
ComAir: 3+ years (back in 1999 received a deal LESS than what they were looking for after an 89 day strike)
MESA: What is their timeline going to be (3-4 years??)
The problem is, that the longer things take to negotiate, the more things are forgotten and the more things the pilot group becomes numb too. (Not management though) Thus, the pilot group will finally acquiesce for a pittance of what they originally were looking for because management can hold out longer when it comes to spending money. ( As a matter of fact, we all can hold out when it comes to spending more money for what we are getting now for less).
In addition, during LONG drawn out negotiations, the financial picture of the airline can change dramatically and even drastically. If an airline is successful and profitable, it is in their BEST interest to drag out negotiations until a down turn in business is foreseen, when they can say, "SEE" this is what we have Pilot Group, we really are not making money . . . so you better take this deal or none at all. The nature of the industry changes and so do the expectations of the pilot group.
There is no way negotiations should take more than 6 months. If they take longer than that, I believe a strike should be in order. It's best to strike when the company IS making money, because management's bonuses, profit sharing, salary, et el are tied into their salary.
In addition, the Airline when it's making money DOES have a way to avoid a potential loss of business. They will throw money at the problem. (The problem being, Pilot's Striking). This action by the airlines will diffuse the onset of a potential calamity in the short term.
When a company is in the financial doldrums, it is the worst time to strike because there IS no money to pay for increased salaries. Many times it is just easier for an airline (any business for that matter) to close its doors vs. deal with a union group that wants increased pay, QOL, better benefits, etc.
I've resisted (most of the time) to your post, because as many have pointed out, you refuse to say where you work or what your experience is. So this responce is not really to you, but to those who read your post and think you might actually know what your talking about.
The problem is, that the longer things take to negotiate, the more things are forgotten and the more things the pilot group becomes numb too.
Anyone who is a member of the ASA pilot group will tell you that we are the opposite of numb. Each day that goes by only increases the resolve and anger among our flight group. So much so that pilots are leaving faster than management can replace them. (some will argue that is a good thing, cheaper labor theory, and it is true, up until you can't get the total number of pilots you need and you cancel flights due to lack of crews; and we are there!)
Thus, the pilot group will finally acquiesce for a pittance of what they originally were looking for because management can hold out longer when it comes to spending money
I'm sure I am not the only one who sees the glaring contradiction here.
if we are numb and will "finally acquiesce" then why are we still fighting after 5 years? The acquiesce factor would have set in long ago if there was any credibility to that theory; and there is none. AHah moment. Being a member of ALPA ensure that we can hold out just as long, we've got just as many lawyers and $.
[I]There is no way negotiations should take more than 6 months. If they take longer than that, I believe a strike should be in order. [/I]
an Ellen first; wrong twice in one thought...
1. negotiations can be manipulated by unions just like management can. At ASA our contract became amendable right after 9/11. Not a good time to ask for a raise. The union drug their feet intentionally.
2. As many have pointed out, Ellen apparently has no understanding of the NMB and the RLA (national mediation board and Railway labor act). It doesn't matter how pizzed you are, you can't just strike, you must be released or it is illegal. The problem is political. The conservative pro business judges and national administration have said "no airlines strikes". period, after all the money they spent bailing out the airlines after 9/11.
(For the records, I'm a Republican, but I do recognize what is hurting our efforts)
In addition, during LONG drawn out negotiations, the financial picture of the airline can change dramatically and even drastically. If an airline is successful and profitable, it is in their BEST interest to drag out negotiations until a down turn in business is foreseen, when they can say, "SEE" this is what we have Pilot Group, we really are not making money
Same point again. I don't think Ellen is really this stupid, I guess her motivation is to only point out half the story. Maybe she is really airline management just trying to pass out kool aid cups from the jug. (Maybe, She is not even really a she........who knows. "She" won't be honest and say who he/she is.)
To negate her point; although what he/she says could be true, the opposite could be true as well. If the profitabilty of an airline is average at the time you start negotiation but continues to do better of the duration of negotiation, it gives the pilot group more leverage to ask for their fair piece of the pie. Duh
[I]When a company is in the financial doldrums, it is the worst time to strike because there IS no money to pay for increased salaries. Many times it is just easier for an airline (any business for that matter) to close its doors vs. deal with a union group that wants increased pay, QOL, better benefits, etc[/I].[/
Fear mongoring! Although it is true that a business can always be shut down, most of the regional carriers are doing extremely well. Skywest inc. is making 42 million a quarter.
The more I think about it the more apparent it becomes that Ellen post on here only to create a false sense of desperation and influence young pilots to accept 19k a year to be a professional pilot.
If you read close enough you can sort out the real pilots from the pozer!
Stick
Last edited by de727ups; 08-29-2007 at 08:32 AM. Reason: insults removed
08-29-2007, 06:12 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: XJT furloughed due to non-ALPA undercutting
Posts: 376
Everyone his having a hard time negotiating the CEO pay. Gosh, it's so rough.
CEO pay: 364 times more than workers
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/28/news...rss_topstories
CEO pay: 364 times more than workers
http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/28/news...rss_topstories
