SKYHIGH is in for a surprise
08-21-2007, 07:14 PM
#71
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Hold on Everyone!
Hold on folks! There' been a misunderstanding here. My controversial post was NOT intended to tell anyone how they should be living their lives...
I addressed the typical white-collar American Dream, (not the CEO's american dream or the cable-guy's american dream). I tried to provide realistic financial requirements for what I described.
If you don't need vacations or hobbies, I'm certainly not going to try to tell you otherwise, but I did provide realistic costs for what I described (based on real-life experience).
My estimates on retirement are conservative, ie if all goes well you will have money left over to will to your kids, as opposed to your adult children having to support you for the last ten years of your life.
College savings assumes that college costs will spiral up (they are) and that a BS/BA degree is tomorrow's High School diploma, so post-grad is highly desireable.
The point of this was to help the younger folks understand what things cost, and what their income expectations should be (depending on what their goals are). After first year FO pay, many are pre-conditioned by the regional industry to think that $50K is the big-time...
I addressed the typical white-collar American Dream, (not the CEO's american dream or the cable-guy's american dream). I tried to provide realistic financial requirements for what I described.
If you don't need vacations or hobbies, I'm certainly not going to try to tell you otherwise, but I did provide realistic costs for what I described (based on real-life experience).
My estimates on retirement are conservative, ie if all goes well you will have money left over to will to your kids, as opposed to your adult children having to support you for the last ten years of your life.
College savings assumes that college costs will spiral up (they are) and that a BS/BA degree is tomorrow's High School diploma, so post-grad is highly desireable.
The point of this was to help the younger folks understand what things cost, and what their income expectations should be (depending on what their goals are). After first year FO pay, many are pre-conditioned by the regional industry to think that $50K is the big-time...
08-21-2007, 07:35 PM
#72
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Hey Rick, I really have to disagree with you here. Some of us are simple people. I am pretty simple. I live in a simple city, in a simple part of the country and I was raised on a simple lower-middle class single parent income.
I never went without anything I didn't need nor did I live in the lap of luxury. I considered and still to this day consider myself spoiled just because I never went hungry, always had decent clothes, hot running water, and electricity.
I do enjoy nice things, and I do want nothing but the best for my son, but I don't think that I need to make $150k just to get by. I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree, but I also have to agree with Herc in what it takes to be happy.
Does that mean that I should go fly for Mesa and have a miserable QOL with poor compensation for what I do? Money is nice, things are nice, and a secure future for me and my family is extremely important. However, for me and a lot of other people like me I can do all of that without two six figure incomes in the house.
Again, I'm not arguing and I do actually agree with you that professional pilots deserve adequate compensation for what they do, I just think some people need to see the other side of the fence and live within their means.
I never went without anything I didn't need nor did I live in the lap of luxury. I considered and still to this day consider myself spoiled just because I never went hungry, always had decent clothes, hot running water, and electricity.
I do enjoy nice things, and I do want nothing but the best for my son, but I don't think that I need to make $150k just to get by. I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree, but I also have to agree with Herc in what it takes to be happy.
Does that mean that I should go fly for Mesa and have a miserable QOL with poor compensation for what I do? Money is nice, things are nice, and a secure future for me and my family is extremely important. However, for me and a lot of other people like me I can do all of that without two six figure incomes in the house.
Again, I'm not arguing and I do actually agree with you that professional pilots deserve adequate compensation for what they do, I just think some people need to see the other side of the fence and live within their means.
I certainly didn't grow up with a silver spoon either...my education was courtesy of uncle sam. I'm just shooting for slightly better off than my folks had it. Even though I enjoyed the heck out of most of my military experiences I don't want my kids to feel the way I did at age 18...that military service was my only option.
None of things I described were particularly luxurious except maybe a small sailboat or C-152. I'm talking about comfortable somewhat-upper-middle class living. I am assuming a large metro area (and corresponding prices) because pilot domiciles tend to be in large towns (even though our payscales are not adjusted for local COL, like other professions).
Again, I was refering to total household income, not dual six-figure incomes.
Also I am not advocating huge QOL sacrifices in pursuit of the dollar...I won't do that either, but I am advocating realistic financial goals.
08-21-2007, 07:42 PM
#73
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
All of my friends who have more than one kid have gone with the stay-at-home spouse option...otherwise you do a lot of running around back and forth between work and day care for very little net income.
08-21-2007, 08:04 PM
#74
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Wow Rick !!
You really stepped on a mine field !! BOOM
I agree with you by the way. It costs a lot to properly fund a full life.
Skyhigh
I agree with you by the way. It costs a lot to properly fund a full life.
Skyhigh
08-21-2007, 08:06 PM
#75
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
08-21-2007, 09:11 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
I disagree... ten year major: base pay is almost $70K Add in all the other stuff:
Housing and Food Allowance (large and tax free)
Flight pay.
Retentention Pay.
Retirement.
MWR
Commissary
Daycare
Medical
Housing and food alone would be $30K (tax free) in many places! The tax- factor makes it closer to $40K in real-world dollars.
How about retirement? That saves you 15% that doesn't need to go in the 401K...another $10-15K
Flight and retention pay? another $15K or thereabouts?
That doesn't even count the non-cash bennies. See what I mean?
It hurt when I got out, and I remember it!
Housing and Food Allowance (large and tax free)
Flight pay.
Retentention Pay.
Retirement.
MWR
Commissary
Daycare
Medical
Housing and food alone would be $30K (tax free) in many places! The tax- factor makes it closer to $40K in real-world dollars.
How about retirement? That saves you 15% that doesn't need to go in the 401K...another $10-15K
Flight and retention pay? another $15K or thereabouts?
That doesn't even count the non-cash bennies. See what I mean?
It hurt when I got out, and I remember it!
base+bah+approx vha+flight pay for a 10 yr Maj is $98,000 per year.
-Retention pay is not available until after 10 years.
-Daycare? WTF? I don't remember any huge benefit here?
-If you think the commissary and AAfes are somehow better than Costco, you must never have been in the military.
-If I'm not mistaken, it's more than possible to be a 10 year Capt and subtract another 8500 a year from that number.
-Housing is nowhere close to 30k. BAH is more like 18k and already included in the 98k I mentioned above. Officers get zero reimbursement for food (i.e. we get surcharged to eat at the chow hall unless we are under orders)
-Retirement is great, but you have to stay to 20 to see a penny of it. If you leave 1 day early, you get nothing. You are never "vested".
-Medical for the member is totally paid for but otherwise for your family you have to deal with Tricare. I honestly can't wait to get out from under that system.
It certainly doesn't take into account some of the disadvantages that I already mentioned: Never getting a chance to build equity in your home; wife frequently unable to work etc.
Either way, for those of us who made a living under the system, we weren't makeing "well over $100K" like you tried to say.
08-21-2007, 09:20 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
OK. Now the other side of the story. You can make a lot less than 150k a year and still live a great "American Dream" kind of life.
We've had this argument here many times before and I'm not going to go through the math again except to say that I've rarely made over 100k a year in my life, and yet I have all those things that Rick et al say are necesary to feel middle class in America.
Four kids, two in college.
Paid off Lexus, and toyota truck.
Wife drives a newish SUV
one car loan, one house loan and no other debt
Much bigger house than I need with about 40% equity
Very nice guitar collection that I'm hoping to add to soon
Never made more than $112k in my life, and will make substantially less than that this year.
Not trying to brag, just saying that you guys who think you need 150k to survive have unrealistic expectations.
We've had this argument here many times before and I'm not going to go through the math again except to say that I've rarely made over 100k a year in my life, and yet I have all those things that Rick et al say are necesary to feel middle class in America.
Four kids, two in college.
Paid off Lexus, and toyota truck.
Wife drives a newish SUV
one car loan, one house loan and no other debt
Much bigger house than I need with about 40% equity
Very nice guitar collection that I'm hoping to add to soon
Never made more than $112k in my life, and will make substantially less than that this year.
Not trying to brag, just saying that you guys who think you need 150k to survive have unrealistic expectations.
08-21-2007, 09:48 PM
#79
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 78
Hi guys!
This is my third post in about a years time, however I often read this board, learn alot and value your insight on the industry. Recently I got back into instructing after several years away from the cockpit. I come from having a short and very lucrative self employment background and I agree on what Skyhigh is saying may be right on the numbers. Unfortunately, I just don't see how airline pilots are going to gain what has been lost over the last few years.
I believe the big plunge for this industry is going to continue because of the negative geopolitical situation, combined with the ever increasing aggresive business tactics of the LCC's. Increased exposure to potential personal financial ruin makes an aviation career far less attractive than before.
It's my opinion the bi-product of this will be evident in the quality of the individual/applicants entering the profession. It's not unrealistic to expect in the near future newhire/applicants of such low overall calibre that they are one small step above your average urban bus driver -only to drive the industry further south. Only my opinion.
As Rickair777 explains well in his post, it's imperative to have a healthy dose of personal financial knowledge and save as much as you can for retirement and the eventual lean years.
Regards,
Erik
This is my third post in about a years time, however I often read this board, learn alot and value your insight on the industry. Recently I got back into instructing after several years away from the cockpit. I come from having a short and very lucrative self employment background and I agree on what Skyhigh is saying may be right on the numbers. Unfortunately, I just don't see how airline pilots are going to gain what has been lost over the last few years.
I believe the big plunge for this industry is going to continue because of the negative geopolitical situation, combined with the ever increasing aggresive business tactics of the LCC's. Increased exposure to potential personal financial ruin makes an aviation career far less attractive than before.
It's my opinion the bi-product of this will be evident in the quality of the individual/applicants entering the profession. It's not unrealistic to expect in the near future newhire/applicants of such low overall calibre that they are one small step above your average urban bus driver -only to drive the industry further south. Only my opinion.
As Rickair777 explains well in his post, it's imperative to have a healthy dose of personal financial knowledge and save as much as you can for retirement and the eventual lean years.
Regards,
Erik
08-21-2007, 10:19 PM
#80
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Rick; don't kid a kidder kid.
base+bah+approx vha+flight pay for a 10 yr Maj is $98,000 per year.
-Retention pay is not available until after 10 years.
-Daycare? WTF? I don't remember any huge benefit here?
-If you think the commissary and AAfes are somehow better than Costco, you must never have been in the military.
-If I'm not mistaken, it's more than possible to be a 10 year Capt and subtract another 8500 a year from that number.
-Housing is nowhere close to 30k. BAH is more like 18k and already included in the 98k I mentioned above. Officers get zero reimbursement for food (i.e. we get surcharged to eat at the chow hall unless we are under orders)
-Retirement is great, but you have to stay to 20 to see a penny of it. If you leave 1 day early, you get nothing. You are never "vested".
-Medical for the member is totally paid for but otherwise for your family you have to deal with Tricare. I honestly can't wait to get out from under that system.
It certainly doesn't take into account some of the disadvantages that I already mentioned: Never getting a chance to build equity in your home; wife frequently unable to work etc.
Either way, for those of us who made a living under the system, we weren't makeing "well over $100K" like you tried to say.
base+bah+approx vha+flight pay for a 10 yr Maj is $98,000 per year.
-Retention pay is not available until after 10 years.
-Daycare? WTF? I don't remember any huge benefit here?
-If you think the commissary and AAfes are somehow better than Costco, you must never have been in the military.
-If I'm not mistaken, it's more than possible to be a 10 year Capt and subtract another 8500 a year from that number.
-Housing is nowhere close to 30k. BAH is more like 18k and already included in the 98k I mentioned above. Officers get zero reimbursement for food (i.e. we get surcharged to eat at the chow hall unless we are under orders)
-Retirement is great, but you have to stay to 20 to see a penny of it. If you leave 1 day early, you get nothing. You are never "vested".
-Medical for the member is totally paid for but otherwise for your family you have to deal with Tricare. I honestly can't wait to get out from under that system.
It certainly doesn't take into account some of the disadvantages that I already mentioned: Never getting a chance to build equity in your home; wife frequently unable to work etc.
Either way, for those of us who made a living under the system, we weren't makeing "well over $100K" like you tried to say.
OK, I looked it up: BHA in my town (SOCAL) is $27,528 (tax free) for an O-4 (there is no more VHA, they got rid of that a while ago
). Like I said before this is all based on the big city.The equity thing doesn't make a lot of sense...most people I know bought a house early on and rented it out when out-of-area.
In my town the commissary is cheaper...the exchange is usually only good for beating sales tax on big-ticket items (if they have what you're looking for).
The daycare thing seems to be a recent iniative...if you really think we still have VHA it may have come after your time.
Retention pay is right around the corner at ten years...and if you're a ten year O-3 in the Navy you're getting processed out for failure to select...can an O-3 stay for 20 in the AF? I though we all had then same rules on that...
You absolutely have to stay for 20 to get the retirement, and put up with all the downsides that entails.
For those of you who have been out for a while, service members have been getting pretty good across-the-board raises every year for a good while now. Jan 1 should be another 3.5%.
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