SKYHIGH is in for a surprise
08-21-2007, 02:48 PM
#61
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Rick, Alot of what you mentioned are just things. Man I can tell ya... things dont mean crap. I lost EVERYTHING....those things didnt make me happy, family, friends, and being content with ones self will make you happy.
Dont get me wrong, I am not againt THINGS.... but some of what you listed isnt required for a happy GOOD life.
Dont get me wrong, I am not againt THINGS.... but some of what you listed isnt required for a happy GOOD life.
Why not attempt to maximize your personal finances? Money does make a difference in a lot of ways...why let that corrupt airline CEO have it all? Why should you allow YOUR kids to get off to a half-@ssed start at the local community college? The CEO's kids are going to good private universities...and they're spending YOUR kid's college money on their semester break on the French Riveria.
Out of all of the stuff I listed, the only things that might be considered materialistic are the toys...the really expensive stuff (house, college, retirement) is not really optional.
I'm not saying you NEED $150K...but that's probably about the point where you will be satisfied, secure, and not have unfilled desires due to lack of money.
08-21-2007, 02:56 PM
#62
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Now I know where we differ, I do not consider owning a vacation house (or time-share condo), plus a boat (airplane, dirt bikes, atvs, horses, etc.) ontop of taking multiple nice vacations a year, to be nessecary to live a comfortable life. Would I like to have those things? Yes. Would I be less happy if I did not have them? Not a chance.
You take those things out of the equation, and that would lower your "needed" income for a comfortable living. I, personally, do not believe those things which I just listed are nesscary to having a comfortable, happy lifestyle.
Plus, I am assuming $150k is the household income. Most families have both spouses working and not because they have to, ask any young girl what they want to be when they grow up, and I can guaruntee the popular answer is not a housewive or stay at home mom. So when you look at it like that, they would each have to make around $75k, since the household income would then be around $150k. So when we start looking at a family of 4 needing $150k, we are acutally looking at each spouse bringing in $75k or so.
You take those things out of the equation, and that would lower your "needed" income for a comfortable living. I, personally, do not believe those things which I just listed are nesscary to having a comfortable, happy lifestyle.
Plus, I am assuming $150k is the household income. Most families have both spouses working and not because they have to, ask any young girl what they want to be when they grow up, and I can guaruntee the popular answer is not a housewive or stay at home mom. So when you look at it like that, they would each have to make around $75k, since the household income would then be around $150k. So when we start looking at a family of 4 needing $150k, we are acutally looking at each spouse bringing in $75k or so.
The toys are not a necessity, but most of the rest of it is...So you're thinking life is good without vacations or a special place to go to get away from it all? Yes, you and I are different...you should probably apply to mesa immediately, JO would love to have you.
08-21-2007, 03:37 PM
#63
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Normally I agree with most of what you write but I can't believe you would say that you are getting a half-a$$ed start because you go to the local community college. That's ridiculous. I personally think it's a waste to go pay out your a$$ for a private school when you can take the same class for 1/5 the price at the local community college. School is what you make of it. I just don't get the "private" school b.s.
08-21-2007, 03:39 PM
#64
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
How much is daycare where you live? My friend pays $750/mo (which, by the way, I don't think is cheap) for 4 days a week. So, even if you paid $1000/mo, that doesn't equal a nice new car each year. What kind of nice new car can you get for $12,000?
08-21-2007, 03:42 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: C152
Posts: 501
Yes, I'm talking about household income. 2 x $75K works, but the daycare costs are huge (equivalent to a nice new car each year, unless you just drop the kids off at that illegal immigrant's apartment).
The toys are not a necessity, but most of the rest of it is...So you're thinking life is good without vacations or a special place to go to get away from it all? Yes, you and I are different...you should probably apply to mesa immediately, JO would love to have you.
The toys are not a necessity, but most of the rest of it is...So you're thinking life is good without vacations or a special place to go to get away from it all? Yes, you and I are different...you should probably apply to mesa immediately, JO would love to have you.
I never went without anything I didn't need nor did I live in the lap of luxury. I considered and still to this day consider myself spoiled just because I never went hungry, always had decent clothes, hot running water, and electricity.
I do enjoy nice things, and I do want nothing but the best for my son, but I don't think that I need to make $150k just to get by. I understand what you are saying and for the most part I agree, but I also have to agree with Herc in what it takes to be happy.
Does that mean that I should go fly for Mesa and have a miserable QOL with poor compensation for what I do? Money is nice, things are nice, and a secure future for me and my family is extremely important. However, for me and a lot of other people like me I can do all of that without two six figure incomes in the house.
Again, I'm not arguing and I do actually agree with you that professional pilots deserve adequate compensation for what they do, I just think some people need to see the other side of the fence and live within their means.
08-21-2007, 04:09 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
Look at a mid-grade military pilot...what does he make?
Hold On! Before you answer that, take into account bonuses, the non-taxable allowances, the benefits, and the retirement...with the exception of a few marginal bennies you won't get any of that at most airlines.
If you do the math, he's well over $100K.
Hold On! Before you answer that, take into account bonuses, the non-taxable allowances, the benefits, and the retirement...with the exception of a few marginal bennies you won't get any of that at most airlines.
If you do the math, he's well over $100K.
If by mid level you mean a Capt or Maj sel who hasn't taken a re-up bonus yet, even with tax and benefit advantages, they're not reaching 100k.
Then subtract some of the disadvantages....
Difficult or impossible for spouse to have a career
Difficult or impossible to build equity in a house
Forced moves and long TDY's
A Major with the re-up bonus breaks 100k, but is not "well over".
08-21-2007, 04:17 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
i dont think a vacation home is a nessisity.... nor are new cars... buy one a couple of years old and save the depreciation. Have to agree with the college thing.... anything more than 10-12 grand a year is just crazy.... UNLESS you have scholarships... im pretty lucky in that my 17 year old will graduate 2nd in her class of 275 and popped a 34ACT score..... she's probably going anywhere she wants at their expense.... as for junior/community colleges...my wife did two years at one before finishing off at a state university... 3.95gpa...no problem with job offers when she got out....and she makes ABOVE the national average for female IT people... so.. I dont think junior college held her back.
Certainly we should all provide for our families..... and do the best we can by them.... to a point!!!! Course SKY had to denegrate the fact the some guys wives make more than them.... well even when I was relitivly well paid for flying ( military ) my wife made more than I did... she has always and probably always will because of my age. Has never bothered me or her. I find it incredible how he complained about traveling etc.... what did he think pilots DO?....but I digress.
yea i was gonna chime in about mil pay as well.... a flying O-4 with reup might break 100....but **** you think divorce is high amongst civilian pilots.... try the military aviation community on for size.
Certainly we should all provide for our families..... and do the best we can by them.... to a point!!!! Course SKY had to denegrate the fact the some guys wives make more than them.... well even when I was relitivly well paid for flying ( military ) my wife made more than I did... she has always and probably always will because of my age. Has never bothered me or her. I find it incredible how he complained about traveling etc.... what did he think pilots DO?....but I digress.
yea i was gonna chime in about mil pay as well.... a flying O-4 with reup might break 100....but **** you think divorce is high amongst civilian pilots.... try the military aviation community on for size.
08-21-2007, 04:41 PM
#68
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,108
Not true.
If by mid level you mean a Capt or Maj sel who hasn't taken a re-up bonus yet, even with tax and benefit advantages, they're not reaching 100k.
Then subtract some of the disadvantages....
Difficult or impossible for spouse to have a career
Difficult or impossible to build equity in a house
Forced moves and long TDY's
A Major with the re-up bonus breaks 100k, but is not "well over".
If by mid level you mean a Capt or Maj sel who hasn't taken a re-up bonus yet, even with tax and benefit advantages, they're not reaching 100k.
Then subtract some of the disadvantages....
Difficult or impossible for spouse to have a career
Difficult or impossible to build equity in a house
Forced moves and long TDY's
A Major with the re-up bonus breaks 100k, but is not "well over".
Housing and Food Allowance (large and tax free)
Flight pay.
Retentention Pay.
Retirement.
MWR
Commissary
Daycare
Medical
Housing and food alone would be $30K (tax free) in many places! The tax- factor makes it closer to $40K in real-world dollars.
How about retirement? That saves you 15% that doesn't need to go in the 401K...another $10-15K
Flight and retention pay? another $15K or thereabouts?
That doesn't even count the non-cash bennies. See what I mean?
It hurt when I got out, and I remember it!
08-21-2007, 06:31 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
And you mention none of the negatives...LOL
Ive was shoot at a few times in my flying career... not worth it.
In one manner that the military does do it right is that in general, and for the most part ( nothing is perfect ) advancement and better flying positions, IP, EP, Spec Ops if thats your thing,,,, flight Lead....all of those things are predicated on ABILITY .....unlike the senority system of the airlines which is solely based on how long you have been there ( NO... I dont advocate a merit only system in civilian flying ) but there is incentive to perform ... Senority based systems and draconian mgt have turned most pilots into "sky lawyers" with there Jepps in one hand and the contract in the other..... lol
Oh well, you have to take the good with the bad.
Ive was shoot at a few times in my flying career... not worth it.
In one manner that the military does do it right is that in general, and for the most part ( nothing is perfect ) advancement and better flying positions, IP, EP, Spec Ops if thats your thing,,,, flight Lead....all of those things are predicated on ABILITY .....unlike the senority system of the airlines which is solely based on how long you have been there ( NO... I dont advocate a merit only system in civilian flying ) but there is incentive to perform ... Senority based systems and draconian mgt have turned most pilots into "sky lawyers" with there Jepps in one hand and the contract in the other..... lol
Oh well, you have to take the good with the bad.
08-21-2007, 06:35 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Heavies
Posts: 1,414
Assuming you have no independent finances (inheritance, trust fund, military pension, etc), $150K would be reasonable for a family of four. This would allow you to...
-Own an upper-middle class home in a major urban area (or a modest ranch/farm in the sticks).
-Furnish your home.
-Own 2 reasonable cars.
-Save for retirement: 15% to 401k PLUS another 10-15% to personal investment vehicles. If you start at age 22, the 15% to the 401k might be enough but most folks don't start that young. For retirement planning you need to assume that you will live to age 90...that's where the trend is going and you don't want to be a burden to your kids. You will need at least $1 Million to retire modestly, more if you want to be very active and/or retire earlier than 60.
-Afford a couple of nice vacations each year.
-Pay for day care and other kiddie expenses.
-Save for college (x2).
-Own a cabin or time-share condo.
-Own a boat, airplane, dirt bikes, or other hobby item (your wife will want her own hobby...maybe a horse).
This all assumes an somewhat upper-middle class lifestyle. I can positevly 100% guarantee you that SJS will NOT allow you to be satisfied living a lower-class lifestyle for the next 30-40 years...it only lasts for 6-12 months.
I know a number of regional CA's who get by fine on $80-90K, but they all have somehing going for them...either the spouse works, or they made out in the real estate boom. A big real-estate score can pretty much provide the retirement fund....now all you need is beer money. Since we are having this conversation, I assume that you didn't do real-estate in 1999 and instead will have to save for your own retirement.
-Own an upper-middle class home in a major urban area (or a modest ranch/farm in the sticks).
-Furnish your home.
-Own 2 reasonable cars.
-Save for retirement: 15% to 401k PLUS another 10-15% to personal investment vehicles. If you start at age 22, the 15% to the 401k might be enough but most folks don't start that young. For retirement planning you need to assume that you will live to age 90...that's where the trend is going and you don't want to be a burden to your kids. You will need at least $1 Million to retire modestly, more if you want to be very active and/or retire earlier than 60.
-Afford a couple of nice vacations each year.
-Pay for day care and other kiddie expenses.
-Save for college (x2).
-Own a cabin or time-share condo.
-Own a boat, airplane, dirt bikes, or other hobby item (your wife will want her own hobby...maybe a horse).
This all assumes an somewhat upper-middle class lifestyle. I can positevly 100% guarantee you that SJS will NOT allow you to be satisfied living a lower-class lifestyle for the next 30-40 years...it only lasts for 6-12 months.
I know a number of regional CA's who get by fine on $80-90K, but they all have somehing going for them...either the spouse works, or they made out in the real estate boom. A big real-estate score can pretty much provide the retirement fund....now all you need is beer money. Since we are having this conversation, I assume that you didn't do real-estate in 1999 and instead will have to save for your own retirement.
You could not have all that in the Northeast...no effing way
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