Flight25

That is a healthy chunk of your pay. Is that aftertax and exclusive of perdiem or 1.9% of the whole paycheck? Too bad you all cant find an alternate way of representation. Would be nice of some of the retired guys could do it probono or nearly so after all they have a stake in the retirement system. I realize that is not realistic because the older guys are the beneficiaries of the union and the younger guys from the writings on this thread would feel intimidated to try anything new. Looks like the union has its members by their members. I guess when you are in the trenches it is very hard to see the big picture sometimes. Although I know I will get blasted for this, but pay for training, the original post, and then work for a few months at minimal salary, is a reflection of the current job market for pilots. If there was a true shortage the companies would be doing everything they could to train and keep pilots. But right now they dont have to and likely cant. If the companies are hurting financially, be it through poor management, excessive costs, or whatever, they cant raise ticket prices because it would reduce revenue even futher. I read some of the other discussions and some Delta guys were saying strike even if it kills the company. Again that is going to bring on a bigger glut of trained pilots reducing the need to pay higher wages and forcing down the pay of the entry level jobs even more, it aint instantaneuous but will happen, unless companies find a way out of their economic hardships. It simply is a bad time to be a pilot when looking at it historically. Funny though, read other pilots talking about how easy it is to make 130k to 140k doing things other than flying, I think there are likely unrealistic expectations for many. Anyway, I will stick by my early rants and say I think it is wrong to use intimidation and possible violence to keep a capable pilot out of an aircraft because he had the means to buy his training and then "apprentice" for a few months with an airline. He isnt making that his final place of employment nor is it close to being long term employment for many. Once the demand for pilots rights itself it will all change. May take years for it to happen. I wish you all the best. For those of you who are bitter, that stuff will kill you from the inside.

greedyairlineexec

fligth 25.................you are one ignorant ****head. Please learn about the history and the why of organized labor before posting....or better yet, don't ever get involved on aviation or any other skilled labor trade.

Flight25

Ok, obviously no one can have an alternate point of view with out it resorting to name calling. For your information I do know a little about organized labor and the reason it started. Because I dont agree with you does not mean I am ignorant, far from it. Discourse is a way for people to learn. Many will resort to name calling when they can't formulate a sound argument. For instance I think I could have a beer with Rickair7777 because he can make an argument with logic and reason without resorting to name calling. Although I disagree with some of his points he tries reason not bullying and name calling. You are right I probably should not be involved in skilled trades, OTHER THAN aviation. I will stay in aviation because I love it. I will probably make little money as a professional flight instructor, but dont worry I wont curse those of you who keep my wages down because you saw it as a way to get to the big money. I will just have to be more resourceful and better than the others in the trade. By the way what in my last post was so offensive? There are no personal attacks no slander of anyone, just things as I see them. Please explain.

freezingflyboy

Flight25,
I will try to respond to your comments in an objective and civil manner but to be honest, your comments infuriate me. That probably explains the warm response you have recieved on these forums. Pilots as a group show very little respect for people who shoot thier mouths off without being informed. And no, your econ degree or whatever your econonmics background is does NOT make you informed about THIS industry. Though airline economics sounds similar to micro economics, it bears little resemblence. If you get bored not pursuing an airline career, you might want to poke your head into an airline management/airline economics class. About a week of that and your head will spin.

Your comment about the "workers of the world unite dribble": If it were not for collective bargaining, this industry would be full of 23 year old video gamers paying big money to fly "this cool flight simulator! I think it even has people in the back too!". I'm not sure what industry you are in (or plan to be) and I don't care because it is irrelevant. The plight of current airline pilots can be applied to any other job as an example but the reality is that few jobs are as sought after or dreamt about. Here is a scenario: you are a doctor. A very well respected and skilled surgeon. But then one day, some trustfund baby walks in to your hospital and points at you and says "I want to do what hes doing. All I ever wanted to do was cut people open and dig around inside them." The head of surgery responds saying "I'm sorry, we don't have a position for someone with your limited experience." Without missing a beat, the trustfund baby says, "What if I payed YOU to work here." The head of surgery will probably kick that guys a$$ out of his office but then management gets wind of this phenomenom of people who will pay for a job and fires the rest of the surgery staff and starts hiring these idiots who will pay for the privelege. Now all is well and good as long as everything goes along nicely like it did during the accelerated medical training programs these kids went through. But when things go bad, people start to die. This example applies almost directly to the airline industry except in one regard. As a surgeon, if you screw up you kill one, maybe two people at a time. Flying a regional airliner, if you screw up upwards of 100 people (if you fly a CRJ-900 or EMB 190) could pay the price for your ignorance and lack of skill. But hey, playing the game is fun.

Without the collective bargaining, we would all be flying for minimum wage. Or better yet Flight25, why not fire all the pilots, sell the airplanes to a holding company in the Bahamas or someother country with little to no protection for workers, apply for 5th and 6th freedom rights to fly in the US and pay pilots nothing. Maybe let 'em snack on peanuts in the plane if they want but NO SODAS! Sounds dumb but I bet some trustfund babies would say "oh boy! I get to live in the Bahamas AND fly a shiny new jet! Wow, I'll be the coolest guy in the world!" Believe it or not, the current market just might bear that. What does your "basic economics" tell you about an economy that just lost tens of thousands of high paying jobs?

To be fair, I do agree with you on a very remote point. I think the way things are going now, it won't be long before airline pilots (myself included)price themselves out of a job. As soon as computers get good enough to "think" and companies realize that paying lawsuits for a few "computer malfunctions" is cheaper (and less hassle) than paying pilot salaries, that will be the end of this profession. I am just glad that I get to be a part of it in its twilight years.

Hope this helps and I didn't miss the mark too much. I'd rant further but i gotta FLY!

Flight25

I get the frustration and resentment at what has happened to you all. It just amazes me that many dont seem to be able to see why it is happening and acknowledge that it wont be the way it was for some time, if ever. Contrary to the last post it is market forces at work. Realize it and make informed decisions. The kid that comes in to get his training and then gets paid a meager amount for 250 hours of time is not taking anyones high paying job. He has the right get his training anyway he sees fit. In fact I would think he is probably getting a better and more consistent education than a kid getting training from a kid that is learning how to teach. My first instructor in flight school was a vietnam veteran who imparted his knowledge, the rest were young active duty officers who could not hold a candle to him either in the aircraft or on the podium. The workers of the world unite was for guys like greedyairlineexec. Look at his screen name it says it all. My guess is he is not willing to look at anything other than his piece of the puzzle and thinks everything is a zero sum game. He failed to notice my words that it is too bad there is not another way for you all to be represented. There is zero power in a sole voice. There is power in organization. I get that. I just cant believe that so many are willing to spout off stuff without looking at the underlying problems hence the group think mentality. The mentality that a professional pilot would care more about whether a kid got his first bit of training via bankroll or via other means blows me away. In my line of work, a pilots thought processes and how good of a stick he is, are what matters. I can hear those saying the military is a safe income. For the past few years it was when there was a demand for the services. Not so in the seventies, early nineties and again in the 00s Mil aviators get laid off, not promoted and forced to leave the service, blah blah blah. Guys in the Navy are stewing right now because they are introducing the flying warrant like the ground pounders do, the supply is greater than the demand. Talk about a reduction in pay to fly it happens in my community too. I dont begrudge anyone for it, I realize why it happens and deal with it. To do otherwise is to put ones head in the sand and react by yelling insults at others. Someone stated in one of the post that I would not stand up as part of a group for others. To that I can easily say I have spent my adult life protecting those who are unwilling or unable to protect themselves from others who use coercion, intimidation, threats of physical violence, blacklisting etc. I can't become a hypocrite and become one of the people I fought against. I am off this post and i am sure to some none too soon. I really do wish you all the best and hope you will one day get the pay and compensation package of old. I choose to enjoy my flying without having to sit in a cockpit with a bunch of bitter people that are living in the past. Money is only a part of the game guys. Thanks.

freezingflyboy

I think you should take a better look at Gulfstream's program. They offer you the "oppurtunity" to PAY $30,000 in order to sit in the right seat of a B1900 and sling gear for 250 hours while getting paid $14/hr. Now I'm not that great at higher end math but simple arithmetic isn't too hard for me. That means Mr. Gulfstream FO's net income from his "meager" pay is NEGATIVE $26,500. That's pretty F*ing meager by anyones standards (sweatshops included). You're right he's not taking away some fat airline pilot's high paying job directly. But he is taking away an entry level job from someone who may be a safer, more competent pilot but who would rather MAKE $26,500 slinging gear in a B1900 than pay for the privelege.

As far as "better" training. I call BS on that one. Explain to me how flying around with a babysitter in clear, blue Caribbean skies, having to dodge the occasional T-storm while learning the ins and outs of raising and lowering the gear on a B1900 makes someone a better pilot than the guy who is flying in and out of icy airports, around t-storms, having to do the babysitting and decision making themselves. I don't know any Gulfstream captains but I wouldn't let one of those snot-nosed 400 hour FOs decide where to have lunch let alone wether or not we should land at our destination, hold or divert.

Joel Payne

Heard an old quote the other day that went something like- " You don't get paid what you deserve, you get paid what you negotiate". I can see 2 future paths for the airline industry. 1. Register the companies overseas and hire 3rd world workers[aka cruise lines], or 2- If you like Amtrak, you'll LOVE Amair.

rickair7777

Fortunately for us, I believe the average american has had about enough experience with indian tech support for their consumer goods. Some companies are actually relocating their tech support back to english-as-a-first-language countries. I'll never buy another *******ing dell until they do ...
If you start talking about outsourcing pilot jobs, I doubt that will fly politically. There's a consistent enough parade of catastrophic third world air disasters to keep the fear factor up for even the most short-sighted internet ticket buyer.

However, the FA's and mechanics are probably screwed in the long run...

greedyairlineexec

the current administration has/is trying really hard to undermine the US citizenship ownership requirement and/or control.
the airlines are for that, since they could flag the airplanes abroad ( read bangladesh) and bust our unions ( something that ****head fligth25 would love to see).
the merchant marines of Europe and the US got screwed when that happened to them , we will get screwed if that happens to us . And it will happen unless you support your PAC and don't vote republican,until they change their tune regarding open skies and airline ownership/control ( and even if they change their tune think long and hard befor voting for that bunch )
don't think for a second our future is safe from the open skies/cabotage/foreing ownership . the threat is very , very real.

medfly

That place sucks.....don't waste your money