Flight25

I just came upon this site and I am amazed at the discourse. You have to love class warfare at any level. Those that are opposed to pay for training are not the ones who actually took that route. Many spout the rhetoric about losing jobs and lowering pay. It is not those that have the means to pay for the training that are causing the problems. Supply and demand is the culprit. In years past the supply was greater than the demand hence higher wages. Now there are more pilots than jobs and competition if fierce so the airlines can afford to do this. I was thinking of going the airline route after the military. Are the people that resort to name calling and personal assaults the "professionals" that I want to spend hours upon hours with? Someone please tell me if this is the dissaffected minority or is this really the view of most "professionals". Thanks

JustAMushroom

DrPepper..
I think you will find in this career the ends do not justify the means.

It's not about getting into the majors at any price. We are all brothers (and sisters) in this struggle and to hear you say it's okay to step on the backs of the rest of us to get ahead is disturbing. Yes, you may have a family to feed, too, just like the rest of us. But in life and in this career self respect is more important than a paycheck.

"I saw an opportunity and took it"...that sounds like a 500 flt hr guy I knew who penciled his log book to 2000 hours. But wait...is that an opportunity to?!

Flight25

I quess I dont understand the post about stepping on others backs. How is paying for an education considered immoral. To equate a person who illegally pads his logbook to someone who has the means to pay for training is simply wrong.
This is a person that is willing to invest, I use that term because that is exactly what he is doing, in order to start a career. Most professionals invest to get to the higher paying jobs. Doctors get paid well below average as interns. Lawyers before they become partners are paid poorly and they invest a few more dollars than 30K for their chance. Most professionals are encouraged to get Masters degrees in order to move up and most are not paid for the education.
Why is it wrong for this young guy to do this. If you did the flight instructor route the older professional flight instructors likely said the exact same thing about you. You held down their pay in order to get what you wanted. He is not doing anything more unethical than those that used flight instruction as a way to build time.

JustAMushroom

Once Dr's and Lawyers start paying to be "employed" then I'll eat my words.

No..older flight instructsr would not say I brought down their pay because I never instructed for free. I charged and earned the pay I got. More experienced CFI's were able to...and did..charge more and had plenty of students.

It's as if this guy came to a FBO and told everyone elses students he would not charge instruction fees. You would probably argue he is investing in his future/education because he can afford to go for months without pay. That is bringing the industry down and stepping on everyone elses back to get ahead.

Flight25

I beg to differ. After reading publications for flight instructors many lament that there are few professionals anymore because flight instructing is not considered a profession but a means to get a job, driving down rates not allowing "professionals" to make a decent living. Of course you see it differently because you took that route. I dont begrudge the fact that you did that, nor should you begrudge the fact that others want to do the same in your profession. This young man is not taking a high paying job from someone. The airlines are not all converting to pay for training. The reality that most pilots dont want to face is they really are nothing special, and I am one. They are employees of a business. The business was formed to make money for its owners, the stockholders. You are in the business to make money also. One is not less ethical than the other. If the business realizes there is an excess supply of a good or service it will drive the price down. Do you advocate that the airline buy the highest price Jet fuel? Labor is one more expense and is paid according to demand. You dont like that, which is understandable, because you cant control it. This young guy sees a chance to get a job without the sacrifice you made in time and energy because he has the means to. Once he is hired he will be just as enthusiastic about pay raises and have a healthy fear of layoffs as you do so dont attack him.

rickair7777

Some valid points. But what you have to understand is that some of this lashing out is borne of frustration...

The CFI route is often tough and results in some development of character and judgement in some younger folks who probably need that. I know you're going to talk about the rigorous academic standards of your academy program and how you studied 14 hours a day...but that's not what I mean by tough. Tough is dealing with difficult customers, management pressure to fly in spite of WX, MX, and/or the student's best interest, etc.

The Academy programs provide a structured package...which is great when you are a student...but some folks still need that next step in their development . There are several flavors of "academy grad" that airline pilots have to deal with...
Career Changer: This one's usually OK. Age makes it harder to learn stuff, especially hands-on tasks associated with aviation, but these folks are probably paying there own way. They bust their @ss, have good judgement from being adults in the first place, and probably have a GA background anyway. They know how to strike a balance between flaunting their lack of experience and being a pushover.
Student Loaner: Usually OK too, but not always. Younger, so judgement may be lacking in general and in aviation in particular. But confronting their own gigantic debt is a bucket of cold water in the face, so they're not so eager to work for chump change after first year.
Daddy's Money: Can still turn out ok...BUT if you've gone your whole life without ever having to earn anything or confront real-life problems it's really hard to develop perspective on your own. These kids are likely to have real attitude problems. Also more likely to be willing to work for peanuts...their airline pay is just beer money anyway, the trust fund covers everything else.

The pay issue is a two part problem...folks who didn'y work as hard to get here are likely to drink big cups of company Koolaid, and are more milling to swallow the company line that they are worthless turd switch monkeys who should be grateful to get minumum wage. Now there is a historical precedent for low entry level wages...get a job, fly a turboprop for 2-3 years, then on to major...well, that's NOT going to happen anymore, we're flying 70+ seat RJ's for turboprop dues-paying wages...and that's what most of us will still be doing in 15 years! Doctors and Lawyers can still look forward to long-term salaries well above the average, but we cannot unless we stop falling all over ourselves to fly airplanes for less $$$ than the other guy!


The other missing component in the academy programs is fear. Some people can't function while scared...they just freeze up. And you can NEVER tell who it's going to be until you put REAL fear into the situation. The big hero high school QB might freeze up when he's finally confronted with a situation that is outside of his control envelope and has an uncertain outcome. The 110 pound little girl with glasses might hold up remarkably well...you never know until it happens for real. Initial GA training is usually devoid of fear because it's supervised, and it's easy to go 300 hours without an act-of-god or maintenance crisis. 1200+ hour CFI's are almost quaranteed to have had fear once or twice. And some of them find the experience so difficult they quit flying. OK, so lets take a brand new 300 hour commercial pilot and put him in the right seat of an airliner...no big deal, he's got a babysitter and the chances of being really scared in an airliner ae actually pretty slim due to the redundancy and safety margins of the 121 system. So after 4 years our hero upgrades to captain...still never been scared. 2 months later (December in New England) he's in severe icing w/ min fuel on a non-precision approach, fully loaded, and he loses an engine due to ice...is he going to freeze up? Who knows? Let's say he does freeze...his FO will take it, right? Well RJ's are two-pilot airplanes under normal conditions...and what if his FO is a brand new kid fresh from the "academy"...see where this is going?

A good way to see it from an airline pilot's perspective...let's say you just finished your COMM ME w/ 300 hours and 100 ME, you're ready to go on to bigger things. Now what if your school suddenly instituted a program where someone could come in off the street, do a three week course, 40 hours in a PC sim, 10 hours in the airplane, solo, and be awarded the same COMM ME that you have. Oh yeah, and the three week program costs $400,000...unfortunately, as ludicrous as this sounds, the european union is developing a program of this sort. They intend to grow airline FO's with essentialy only sim training. They will have so little actual airplane time that they will not hold a pilot's license or be able to fly a Cessna! But a 747 is ok...every now and again I'm REALLY glad I live in America.

End Rant.

JustAMushroom

The issue is not about economics of supply and demand, or shareholder value. It is a much more basic idea.

Should one person try to get ahead at the expense of a group? Do the ends justify the means? It's really that simple.

There are plenty of professional CFI's. And their gripes are with CFI's who fly for free. They bring everyone down. Pilots who pay to fly bring everyone down.

You mentioned Dr's in a previous post. What would you say if interns paid hospitals instead of the otherway around? No one expects airlines to pay 1st year pilots excessive wages. But pilots should not pay to work. Period.

Flight25

To those that think this is not similar to other professions I post this information from the Gulfstream Academy website. You pay for the training and then are paid, although below normal, for the initial experience. This is exactly the same as other professions, although on a much different scale. Doctors rack up huge debts to start as an intern at what 40K. Depending on the specialty, that can easily less than 10% of their actual practice pay.

Hours Areas of Training
80 Ground School Airline Indoctrination And Operations
40 CRM (Crew Resource Management) and Airline Briefing
80 Ground School Beech 1900D Systems Integration
32 Frasca 242 Beech 1900D Turboprop Simulator Training
4 Beech 1900D Aircraft Static Session And EFIS Training
28 Full Flight Simulator Level-D Beech 1900D Flight Training
8 Airline Line Observation Jump Seat Flights Beech 1900D
250 Flying Line As Part-121 Paid First Officer At GIA In Beech 1900D

Why dont you all list the benefits of flying as an instructor and help him out instead of bashing him. I would believe there are benefits to both methods of gaining experience, school of hard knocks vice a structured learning environment. Help him make an informed decision. To the person who started this post it is clear there are some that believe you are cheating to get your training this way. That is something that must be taken into consideration in your decision. Sadly, each persons perception is their reality and you will have to deal with those who perceive that this manner of gaining an education and experience is somehow immoral. I think you know my beliefs, I wish you well.

Flight25

Rickair7777: This is good stuff and useful to the person who asked the question. Most of it is an actual argument on the value of getting his CFI and getting a job that way, without the emotions attached. Good read.
"The CFI route is often tough and results in some development of character and judgement in some younger folks who probably need that. I know you're going to talk about the rigorous academic standards of your academy program and how you studied 14 hours a day...but that's not what I mean by tough. Tough is dealing with difficult customers, management pressure to fly in spite of WX, MX, and/or the student's best interest, etc.

The Academy programs provide a structured package...which is great when you are a student...but some folks still need that next step in their development . There are several flavors of "academy grad" that airline pilots have to deal with...
Career Changer: This one's usually OK. Age makes it harder to learn stuff, especially hands-on tasks associated with aviation, but these folks are probably paying there own way. They bust their @ss, have good judgement from being adults in the first place, and probably have a GA background anyway. They know how to strike a balance between flaunting their lack of experience and being a pushover.
Student Loaner: Usually OK too, but not always. Younger, so judgement may be lacking in general and in aviation in particular. But confronting their own gigantic debt is a bucket of cold water in the face, so they're not so eager to work for chump change after first year.
Daddy's Money: Can still turn out ok...BUT if you've gone your whole life without ever having to earn anything or confront real-life problems it's really hard to develop perspective on your own. These kids are likely to have real attitude problems. Also more likely to be willing to work for peanuts...their airline pay is just beer money anyway, the trust fund covers everything else.

The other missing component in the academy programs is fear. Some people can't function while scared...they just freeze up. And you can NEVER tell who it's going to be until you put REAL fear into the situation. The big hero high school QB might freeze up when he's finally confronted with a situation that is outside of his control envelope and has an uncertain outcome. The 110 pound little girl with glasses might hold up remarkably well...you never know until it happens for real. Initial GA training is usually devoid of fear because it's supervised, and it's easy to go 300 hours without an act-of-god or maintenance crisis. 1200+ hour CFI's are almost quaranteed to have had fear once or twice. And some of them find the experience so difficult they quit flying. OK, so lets take a brand new 300 hour commercial pilot and put him in the right seat of an airliner...no big deal, he's got a babysitter and the chances of being really scared in an airliner ae actually pretty slim due to the redundancy and safety margins of the 121 system. So after 4 years our hero upgrades to captain...still never been scared. 2 months later (December in New England) he's in severe icing w/ min fuel on a non-precision approach, fully loaded, and he loses an engine due to ice...is he going to freeze up? Who knows? Let's say he does freeze...his FO will take it, right? Well RJ's are two-pilot airplanes under normal conditions...and what if his FO is a brand new kid fresh from the "academy"...see where this is going?"

de727ups

"You pay for the training and then are paid, although below normal, for the initial experience. This is exactly the same as other professions, although on a much different scale"

I don't know how it's done in other professions and I don't care. I know how it's done in this profession and Gulfstream in the ONLY one doing it. Anywhere else, that right seat in a paid entry level job and not a place where you PAY money to build 121 experience at a Continental Connection airline. This sort of scheme is great for the individual, when it works, but it's BAD for professional pilots as a whole because it cheapens the career when a pilot pays for a job.

There is a lot of anti-PFJ stigma out there at the regional level with folks who understand it for what it is. It's well deserved and well placed, in my view.

Knowing all that, if you still see Gulfstream as your best option, knock yourself out. Just don't ever use your real name at an internet message board...