Window_Seat

For all you people that got hired mainly at Mesa, TSA, and Pinnacle, how is being able to get hired at 250 hours helping out this industry?

It sounds like the most of the people that think airlines hiring with 200-350 hours is great is the low timers themselves. The argument is usually the same but I I have not seen an answer to why this is good for the industry.

Why it is not.
1) Not helping out the pilot shortage... less supply, higher demand, increasing pay and quality of life (QOL for the newbies) at all levels

2) The airlines ones hiring at these extremely low times are the worst airlines out there. MESA, PINNACLE, and TSA. By that I mean treat their pilots the worst as far as pay and qol. Now I can't get paid more or increase my qol as much because my airline has to compete with yours. Comair and AWAC can't compete anymore because others will do it for cheaper.

3) Seems like most of you guys still think 1000 turbine PIC will get you to your job at Fedex that awaits you when you hit that mark... NOT TRUE. There are many 3 year captains at my airline waiting for that call, with internal recommendations. The dream is over. You may be at your regional longer than you think. Plan accordingly.
The growth will continue to be at the regional levels for a while. It has been for the last 8 years. Don't you think all these regional captains right now want to move on? What happens if mergers take place and there are huge furloughs once again at the majors?.... We will just be flying bigger jets for less money because chicks think dudes who fly bigger jets are way cooler

4) Nowadays on this board people think they are entitled to a job at such a low amount of time. Go to the regionals when you are ready to put 50 to 90 peoples lives in your hands, not when you meet the minimum time requirements.

5) So there you are, at least 3 years after you got hired, now you have that 4th stripe (captain for the newbies), you have to be flying with kids such as you were with no real experience. You airline hired you at 250 hours, that kid sitting next to you might be the same.

6) Safety. Lack of real world experience. Making decisions on your own or decisions based on experience. IMC flight time or lack of. There may be some but with more experience comes better pilots. Yeah, the Navy and Airforce guys 250 hours bla bla bla. Takes a little bit more to make it through the military programs than it does to get 250 hours at Jet U and get hired with Pinnacle. The government invests a little more money on your training than your mom or dad did for you.

My advice to make this industry better. If you are a CFI, get that 700 - 1000 hours, I was getting more time flight instructing than I am at my regional. If not get it then get 700-1000 hours. Put in that extra 6 months to be at a place that you could be happy at after being an airline pilot thing wears off. Get higher pay. Make these bottom feeder airlines hurt for pilots. Maybe, just maybe, we can make regionals expensive enough that it might make sense to move some of the flying that we are currently doing (Ord-DFW, ORD-HOU, DEN-DTW, ORD-SAT, ORD-SLC.... all examples of what should be mainline routes) back to where they belong. Remember, you are competing on cost against mainline United, Delta, American, etc.

Pay for the first and second year: (not taking into account work rules)
Pinnacle $21, 24
Mesa 21, 28 (looks a lot higher than what you will receive based on WR)
TSA 22, 25

Good work rules, FAIR... not Good Pay
Skywest 19 (sucks), 35
Expressjet 23, 34
AWAC 24, 35 (might be up to 42 nowadays)
Republic 23, 30 (a little low for the E 170's (mini airbus) though)

sigep_nm

This same kind of post has gone on over and over again. The problem with it is there is a little fact contained, and almost purely speculation with regards to pay and so forth being the result of low timers. Where were all the "high timers" at when these contracts for so called terrible things were voted in?
So suppose that no low timers went to the airlines and just instructed for two years, what do you think would happen at the regional level? Will you pay magically increase as you suggest (no evidence of that in the past), or while the regional airlines be limited to less flying (remember two pulses up front required to move the plane) which is turn would result in less rev, hence lower pay. Any way you slice it, it falls PURELY ON MANAGEMENT, and management alone. Low timers didnt drive Mesaba into bankruptcy over a year ago, but guess who did? Low timers didnt make AWAC's 146's dissapear, and low timers didnt create Go Jets. Also Mesa has been around for a lot longer than the 'low timers', and you seem to think that maybe it was something good in the past. Did you know Mesa pilots used to get paid by the MILE? Now thats a good airline.

de727ups

Window seat, you bring up some good points that the LTP's gloss over. Many don't want to discuss this. I guess they see it as a threat.

You won't find many RJ Capts that enjoy sitting next to a 300 hour F/O. Glad it will never be my problem.

Fly IFR

Didn't that band OK Go make a song called "Here it goes again"? Maybe they were talking about the repetitiveness of the topics discussed in these forums

Flaps50

The fact is that when you have reduced supply the pay goes up because the unions have better bargaining ability. I don't blame the LTPs; it's the lack of backbone that the current pilots on property at these airlines have that is causing this phenomenon. Funny thing is that all these LTPs are festering into the backbone of the current system, and that is why we are seeing a lack of sturdiness by the pilots. I don't know to many experienced pilots who think this is a good thing for the profession and safety. Heck I remember back to when I was an instructor; I was amazed at how many 250 hour pilots could barely enter the pattern without help let alone fly IMC.

STILL GROUNDED

Here is the thing the way I see it. The low time guy doesn't give a hoot about "what is good for the industry" frankly because he doesn't know any better and you can tell the kid not to touch the stove but until he gets burned he is still going to test it.

My point is, the "low time pilot" is concerned about getting from a-b, which is (a) crappy company to (b) better company. He can either flight instruct, make 10 thousand a year building that critical 1000 hours of 152 time which will mean nothing to anyone else but mean more to him then he'll ever realize without it.

Or, he can build multi engine turbine time with a 121 carrier which will advance his career by 10. And yes he may end up at MESA or TSA or at this point any regional airline. Is he concerned about what it does to the industry? Were you when you were as green as he was, be honest with yourself here? Chances are you were probrably lookng for the quick way and not that long ago it wasn't available.

As I said the green horn doesn't really know any better, the guy who doesn't log on to any of these forum sites doesn't even know the argument exists.

There you have it, the world according to Still Grounded, look for my book, Still Grounded in stores whenever I finish writing it. It will solve all of your aviation industry problems.

C-ya

Mosyslack

Still Grounded and Flaps are the most spot-on posts so far. Window, when you were flight instructing, how much did you know about airline management, unions, work relations and the such? How badly did you want to move up to a regional where you did not have to work 6 days a weeks to make $15,000? I had one offer from Air Midwest and I took it. I had a second one coming from Mesaba but I was already in training and the timing would not have worked out. I am in a far better situation by not going with the seemingly better airline at the time.

This situation (a portion at least) falls on the shoulders of the work groups at the individual airlines. Stand up for yourselves and vote no to a crappy contract! While at Mesa and Comair, I have seen three contracts/LOA's pass because it was better than the alternative, or the perceived alternative.

Unfortunately though, part of the crap QOL in the regionals is simply that THIS IS HOW THE INDUSTRY OPERATES. Your costs are too high....these guys over here can do it for 5% less. What can be done? Why do you think that the industry is so cyclical and there is a money grab when times are good?

This is not a fault of the low time pilots. They are trying to move up the totem pole.

STILL GROUNDED

It's some kinda pole!

I think it is an unbelievable experience to flight instruct, I know more than I ever would of had I not. But currently the supply and demand have opened the doors to guys with much fewer hours that don't need to instruct to build the time. You can't blame them for walking through it. I think most attitudes change once you are through but until y ou get to the otherside you don't really see how detrimental it can be to the industry and yourselves.

Everything is changing, its going to have to get better they are running out of applicants!

WIFlyer

I had a job offer at 800 hours and turned it down--didn't think I was ready and it wasn't the right fit. Now at 1800 I got another offer and took it. I don't know much about the industry and still consider myself an LTP but am looking to learn and learn and learn. I know the training program is good because it has been in place for a long time but I agree, some really low time people just don't have the decision making skills. I have seen it in some of the other instructors I work with.

Skysmith

I agree, I'm lacking in experience as a LTP, but you can't blame LTP's for being invited to the party. Personally, if presented with the opportunity, I don't know what I would choose because I'm not depending solely on flight instruction to support my family. Nonetheless, I sure would love to get out of my desk and start getting time and experience that will take me some place. This same problem faces many professions/industries, do you take inexperienced personnel and give them on the job training knowing that they may screw up or hold out for seasoned veterans? There are advantages to both. I think I might be more likely to hold out for alittle while so my second year pay will have more of a jump and I won't be so poor for quite as long, but my decision has nothing to do with what I may be doing to your crapy pay by accepting a job earlier. You knew what the pay was when you took the job in the first place. Don't blame me for your **** poor pay check, I don't write it.