STILL GROUNDED

So what did any of this have to do with "The question to low timers" who could not possibly answer the ignorant question that was originally posted.

Window_Seat

Right on, nobody has yet, I tried but...

bla bla bla

First of all your frat parties really started to blow the last few years of school. We went to em all and took your chicks back in the good old college days. I Don’t need a double major in econ to understand it! SO Mr. Im to smart for yall frat boy, let me dumb it down for ya. OPEC controls the price by production. The courts will side with the management as long as they have willing pilots to do the job. Think on a large scale, a lack of pilot’s nation wide eventually increases the demand forcing ticket price's up reducing diminishing returns.

higney85

Ya know- just reading through the posts I see some good points from both sides. By both sides I simply mean from the LTP's standpoint as well as from the standpoint of someone who has been in the industry and may have a TT that occupies 4 digits.. Now- to my point- I am a pilot at pinnacle (you may chuckle if it makes you feel better) and I actually enjoy the job. Now don't get me wrong- the POLITICS and pay/contract SUCKS but it is a bit bothersome to see someone BASH pncl that doesn't/hasn't worked there. If you met/flew with many of the captains and met the guys and gals that work at PNCL you would see that just because "uncle phil" is playing the "regional game" the rest of the show (the pilots) are not playing the game. If we were you would have seen one of the famous "last,best, and final offers" signed. The pilot group is united and just because their are some "250 hour wonders" here, it doesn't mean that every FO here is low time. It only comes out because it is surprising to everyone. If you were to have the stats of people starting in every new hire FO class you would see that 250-500 hours is not the norm, its the exception. Before you attack me for being a LTP myself I will disclose that I was hired with 1000TT/240ME, CFI/II/MEI and my AGI. I now am quickly approaching FAA ATP mins and still have over a year before I am old enough to be a CA by just the FAA standards. I am not trying to say that I know anything/everything- cause I DONT, but I do learn something new everytime I strap into the chair. I just wanted to throw up the background before the retorts begin. The comments pertaining to 300 hour FO's in the right seat just out of high school should not be directed at PNCL. Within the bridge programs you will see that the applicants need a 4-yr degree. PNCL has a age 21 minimum to interview, even if you already have the 4 yr degree by graduating early. That does not mean that their are FO's that aren't immature, because those will always exist anyway (some CA's for that matter as well...) I had a build up line for the month of April, and happened to fly with numerous Check Airmen- talking to many of them it seems that the 250 hour guys actually get a little harder OE compared to someone with 1000 hours or more, many don't make it through. CA upgrades require 2500hrs now to upgrade so there is a little time to learn something before you start calling for checklists. I am MEM based, I don't fly with many young CA's down here. Some guys enjoy their 18 days off and don't plan on leaving being a "super RJ capt" as you described it. I DO plan on leaving, and the 1000 TJPIC still does open doors. If you did your homework before making claims on FDX you would know that the hiring has stopped. The pool is full and no more new hiring is planned til June 08. The legacy carriers ARE starting to hire. Supply and demand only goes so long before supply runs out. Not to start am argument, but you can get in with FDX with the mins- you just need to know a true internal, just cause you flew with someone isn't enough anymore- you can argue all you want but its the truth. But back to the LTP debate. If I had 250 hours (just to go along with the "discussion") and an offer to fly a jet (not knowing how it is on the other side after being employed) what would make me pass it up? I instructed, I learned, and I found myself in situations that ended up OK but made me say "hmm.. that should have gone differently". Its the decision making and situational awareness that differentiates a 250 hour guy to a 1000 hour guy in my opinion. What is beyond me is the fact that the FAA has no minimum for 121 pilots. Sure, we have the PIC mins (or lack thereof), but only a commercial/multi to fly a jet with passengers. I remember trying to get insurance on a Cessna 310 with 500/100 with 50 in type and the insurance guy thought I was nuts (his response then had big figures showing me that he wasn't the only one who thought I was nuts). This was to fly 6 people at 200mph. But 50-76 people at 500mph at half the time? Thats what airlines do! Now 135- you need 1200TT, VFR- 500TT (i believe), so why can't SIC's be required to have at least 500TT with some actual IFR experience? That would make the pickings slimmer for airlines, for the 250 hour "students" to instruct, and would help at least a little with experience. What I fear is another reg by "blood" from some kind of accident that will take lives of unfortunate and unknowing passengers because of mgmt taking advantage of the medical condition known as "SJS" (shiny jet syndrome). Now- to help the "industry", well thats easy- ALPA needs to step up and the entire aviation industry needs to stick together. Majors need to force mgmt to bring back pay/QOL, and the regional carriers need to stick by the majors, on the other end majors need to stick by the partners at the regional level. If NW mainline strikes- all ALPA carriers strike! If that message isn't clear as a bell in negotiations nothing will change things for this industry. How to do that? Well get Prater on board, and get legislature that doesn't stop strikes, and supports unions.

Airborne

Very well said.

rickair7777

Clarification on oil pricing...

Oil is a commodity, ie there is no brand differentiation (for technical reasons certain oil sources are prefered, but others can and will be used if the best is too expensive).

Because it's a commodity, ANY significant supplier can affect the global price by releasing more to the market or tightening up. Texas or Alaska could send oil above $200/bbl if they WANTED to. Also shortage of refining cabaility can drive up the price of oil products, even if crude prices don't rise.

Despite what that commie throwback Chavez says in public, OPEC is NOT, under any circumstances, going to voluntarily force the price of crude much higher than it is now.

There is a very simple, non-debatable reason for this: Alternative fuel technology is available, but it's still economically and politically cheaper to continue using petroleum at current pricing levels. If prices rise high enough to FORCE the implementation of alternatives, OPEC will not EVER be able to reverse that process. When that genie gets out of the bottle, OPEC will never, ever be able to put it back, and they will have irrevocably damaged their best market (the west). In five years, half the automobiles in the west could be alternative or hybrid powered. OPEC is simply not going to kill the golden goose...whatever else they may be, they're not stupid.

When oil actually starts to run out for REAL, the price will start a gradual climb to infinity.

flyerfly

To the very first post on the thread. Don't bring TSA into this. Yes we are hiring low time but we don't undercut everyone else to make a penny like other airlines. Our first year pay is great and we have block or better unlike several other airlines. Our second year pay isn't the best but its still better than some. So hiring low time guys at TSA doesn't bring the industry down at all. Its not like Oh yea you have 1000 hrs you get paid 22.50 oh wait you only have 500 you get paid 15.00. Thats what your making it sound like and its not true at all.

Flaps50

More like "Oh you have 300 hours now EVERYONE MAKES $15.00/hr!"

ShyGuy

Mins are dropping at the regionals because nowadays, no one wants to spend tens of thousands of dollars flight training to land a $20k a year RJ first officer job.

Expect the mins to go to having just a Comm/Inst/ME and a pulse in another few months at pretty much every regional.

FlyingCheap

I think that post says it all. We're all here to fly with pax around the world with an airline, not with students in a C172 around the local cow patch. If there's a quick entry to the airlines, you'd be crazy to not take it (all QOL things considered). I understand the benefits of instructing and banner towing and all the other aviation jobs for LTPs, but you're going to get training and experience in the right seat with an airline just the same and it's probably more job related anyway. And before we start the "planes are going to fall out of the sky with LTP FOs" argument again, it ain't gonna happen.

As for the industry, its senior members are going to have to take care of it. New hire FOs aren't going to be able to change things. As the post says, the union members need to stick together and need to work with their local political representatives to change things. As I've said before, it's the Captains that will have to push for change and probably have to suffer the most to get it to happen.