blastboy

You and still grounded have had some great posts. I guarantee you this, if the high timers were a low timer today, most of them would be doing the same thing to gain experience. It's easy for them to say "no I wouldn't" beause they're nice and secure at their current job. If the tables were turned, they'd give in. I raised this question in a previous post: "Are we pilots against pilots or pilots against poor management?" The management should be held accountable for the lousy QOL, pay and substandard contracts. I'm not going to hold a pilot responsible for wanting to gain experience and the QOL. What are all the pilots suppose to do to improve things, quit? That will make things even worse. If you want to change something then cast your vote, write a letter or start a protest. There are much bigger fish to fry than low time pilots at regionals. Skybus is one that is catching my attention and from what I'm researching, it's something to be concerned about. Virgin America might be another.

Tantive400

Excellent post!
However, Im wondering if Pinnacle will be as bad once their new contract is finalized. Their pay scale should increase most definetely. And although i dont like some of your statements bashing LTP's like myself, you do have some great points and i think you are only trying to help the industry. I just think you shouldnt do it by degrading people.

Window_Seat

We were all low time pilot's, I still am. I am not trying to say that they shouldn't be flying airplanes or jets, they just shouldn't jump at the first opportunity which is usually Pinnacle or Mesa which also happen to have some of the worst pay and quality of life. Unfortunately many do and that is why the Mesa's out there still exist. People get selfish and chase the first thing that comes their way that is shiny. If you would wait a few more months you could get on somewhere else that would make this industry a better place, one person at a time. Being a pilot is a great job, but after a few months online you will see that it is a job, one that requires a lot of sacrifice and dedication and worth much more than $20-30K. Choose wisely.

Window_Seat

Skybus and Virgin America pilot's are just trying to further their careers right? I bet that a320 time looks pretty sweet i a logbook jk. These guys are lowering their standards and accepting substandard pay to further their careers. Granted they may make more than an RJ captain but not much. Now when it comes to bargaining for the next contract it will weekend United's, Continental's, Southwest's etc position.
Now think about this. A 250 hour commercial pilot wants to further their career. Mesa comes knocking on the door. Sure it beats flight instructing, you get to fly a jet and maybe even make a little more, also looks great in the logbook i suppose. BUT these companies are not paying you fairly for your services and taking advantage of the fact that you would rather fly a jet instead of gaining valuable experience as a flight instructor or 135 pilot and applying elsewhere to a regional where you can make more money and better quality of life.
With a competent captain, a LTP's are safe, good pilot's. I'm not arguing on that point. What I am saying is don't lower your standards, it will benefit everyone eventually.

blastboy

I'm not lowering my standards here. When I said I was concerned about Skybus and Virgin America, I didn't mean in a good way. I just think they should be a little more of concern than places like Mesa. Places like Skybus can really hurt the future contracts at the majors, you're right and it's impossible to argue with that. I don't have any current intention of flying for a legacy so naturally I shouldn't be concerned right? But I am because I care about my fellow pilots. I want aviation to be successful and get better. Look, I have seen your point from the start of this thread, but I just can't justify blaming a pilot for the faults of the airline management.

And common, now! Enough about the low time pilots not being able to conduct a safe flight. I can't begin to list the amount of accidents that high timers have had in GA aircraft but I'm not going to sit here and bash them, implying that they need to be baby sat by a private pilot who flys the C152 everyday. I could come on here and ask "How are the high timers making GA better?" That just doesn't and wouldn't make any sense. The captain was once in the right seat, learning the exact same stuff as the low timer. You don't need a CFI to learn to fly a jet well. It certainly doesn't hurt to get the CFI but it isn't the means to the end to become good RJ pilot. If the captain has a problem with a low timer sitting in the right seat of an RJ, he's going to stress himself out because there's a lot of them on the way.

de727ups

"Enough about the low time pilots not being able to conduct a safe flight."

No, it's not enough....

Until you're an RJ Capt that gets to work with a 300 hour guy fresh out of IOE, you're not gonna get it. Until then, your whining about how unfair we all are that we don't accept this new paradigm shift with open arms is falling on deaf ears.

I understand this is just "how it is now", and I don't blame you for accepting the job. I'm glad it's not my problem. But I'll promise you the LAST thing I'm gonna do is shut up about it, accept it, and consider it the norm.

That there are a lot of "them" on the way is no reason to think "they" are a good thing.....

blastboy

Weren't you fresh out of IOE once? Is it ok to whine about the low timers? It's not the norm? Denial is a powerful thing.

I can tell you this much, I have never heard my father ever complain about any first officer he has ever had. ever. And he never will, because everyday is a learning experience for both of them. He has taught me everything I know about aviation, the airlines and things that make a good pilot/captain. Bickering about a low timer in the right seat shows arrogance and an unwillingness to mentor someone who is in the same seat you once sat in. How can one become a good captain if he can't handle a new guy in the right seat from time to time?

de727ups

"Weren't you fresh out of IOE once?"

Yeah....

Let's see. The single pilot 135 twin job I had about 1500 total and 100 multi when they signed me off.

The 121 Convair job I had 2000 total and 500 multi.

At UPS, I had 4000 total and 1300 turbine when they signed me off for IOE to be a 727 F/E.

"has anyone noticed that this topic is 13 pages long and has over 4,000 views since April 29? That's alot!"

Is this some sort of popularity contest for you? You goin' for a max view record or something? If so, some of your stuff is starting to make more sense....

"Bickering about a low timer in the right seat shows arrogance and an unwillingness to mentor someone who is in the same seat you once sat in."

Ummmm....not really.

I have an idea. You keep refering to your father the airline pilot. Since he's the guy with the background and you're the guy on here speaking with an experienced opinion, why don't have have HIM come on here to defend the 300 hour airline pilot F/O?

blastboy

I thought you might say that about your experience. But not everyone took the same route you did. I'm glad it worked out for you. But it doesn't work out that way for everyone. Single pilot 135 and the Convair job are impressive, btw. I use to fuel up the old Zantop Convair that flew into CAE several times a month back in '99.

This isn't a popularity contest for me because I didn't start the thread. It's just something I noticed. As addicted to this form as I may be (and I'm not alone here), I would rather go paint my house than win a popularity contest on a forum. geewizz.

Look, if you want to swim upstream with the low timer thing, that's your decision. I don't like certain changes anymore than you do. Nothing would please me more than to bring back days when DC4's and 727's were flown regularly (on top of the better QOL). But that's not going to happen and I have to come to peace with that fact if I want to be happy persuing my aviaiton career. You don't have to accept anything but remember that the only thing that remains constant in life is change.

Maybe you'll get to meet my father someday. He jumpseats on UPS a couple times a year. I know CAE is a UPS hub so if you fly there in the future, maybe we can take you for a ride in our seabee. Send me a PM next time you fly to CAE and can spare a couple hours.

sigep_nm

With all due respect what do you know about this? How many LTPS have you dealt with? And lastly how do you qualify a LTP.. There are many that have CRJ training from a reputable place of training. And have you actually seen the inside of a CRJ from the pilots seat (JS doesnt count)? Just curious