Skyhigh
04-02-2007, 09:28 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 623
I went to a four year state university and earned a degree in business and aviation. Graduated in June of 1989 with the dream of working for Alaska Airlines.
Went on to work as a CFI in the early 1990's. Recession in 1992 put me out of a job. Drove all over the country looking for work. Bought my own Cessna 150 and started a rebel flight school out of the back of my truck, (which was also my home at the time). Got a job as an Alaskan 135 bush pilot. Lived and flew in the bush for several years. Moved on to contract forest service work for two years.
Secured a job as a 135 jet charter and air ambulance pilot. Earned $850 per month and had a 18 day on 4 day of schedule 24 hours a day on 30 minute call out reserve. Flew six different aircraft types, took 12 check rides a year and was a captain on half of them. Ran out of savings after first year.
Went to Horizon Air with the promise of a one year upgrade and F28 jet time. Learned that Horizon Air was the one place in all of aviation that I would most likely never go to Alaska Airlines from. After 2 years upgrade was pushed back to almost 4. Newly married and earning only 20K after two years with the only company that Alaska Airlines avoided hiring from I decided to shake the stench of Horizon and seek employment elsewhere.
Took a position at National Airlines as a 757 FO with the promise of upgrading in one year. Nearly doubled my pay and career expectations. Over three years watched as the company fell from rock stat status to shutdown. Broken, poor and now with a wife two sons and one on the way took family back to hometown. Lived in an apartment on unemployment.
Sold Vegas town house for a profit. Sold other investment homes I accumulated on the way and started a real estate investment and development company. Since then we have enjoyed a massively increased standard of living and welcomed our fourth son a year ago. I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student.
There is much more detail, job situations and layoffs that I left out but this is a good summary. Anyone can play an armchair quarterback but unless you were in my shoes at the time and without a crystal ball to tell the future it is difficult to judge. I played my hand the best I could with the information and opportunities I had. My generation had a hard go of it. Among my peers I am in the top 10% as far as reaching aviation success goes. Of my ground school class at Horizon 90% are either still there, left for a worse job or are out of aviation.
Had someone came to me in my college years and laid out the odds and statistics as I attempt to do here I never would have taken lesson one. I love flying as much as the next guy but my life's goal is for overall success and not just to reach the left seat of an airliner. The only place to get information about flying at the time was from magazines and trade journals. They made aviation seem like a good career field and a sound place to invest myself. I don't fell that way now.
As you all know it is obvious that aviation is on the slow grade down to well below medicority. My overall desire for life success has forced me to see some unflattering things about my chosen career and its future. For over 20 years I made a detailed study of the industry, where it is going and what it takes to succeed and for myself determined that I had reached a place from which I could not win and still hold on to a dying career.
You guys are the last of my flying career. I have nothing else in my day that even reminds me of my flying past except my memories and debating issues with you all. I love flying as much as the next guy but have seen behind the curtain and am trying to spread the word. Take it or leave it.
In conclusion I would like to add that my story in aviation is not over yet. I am 40 years old now and still have many years of eligibility left to reach a place of aviation satisfaction. In addition many of you also have plenty of years to see your fairytale careers come crashing down. I wish harm to no one but offer caution. No one is safe anymore.
SKyHigh
Went on to work as a CFI in the early 1990's. Recession in 1992 put me out of a job. Drove all over the country looking for work. Bought my own Cessna 150 and started a rebel flight school out of the back of my truck, (which was also my home at the time). Got a job as an Alaskan 135 bush pilot. Lived and flew in the bush for several years. Moved on to contract forest service work for two years.
Secured a job as a 135 jet charter and air ambulance pilot. Earned $850 per month and had a 18 day on 4 day of schedule 24 hours a day on 30 minute call out reserve. Flew six different aircraft types, took 12 check rides a year and was a captain on half of them. Ran out of savings after first year.
Went to Horizon Air with the promise of a one year upgrade and F28 jet time. Learned that Horizon Air was the one place in all of aviation that I would most likely never go to Alaska Airlines from. After 2 years upgrade was pushed back to almost 4. Newly married and earning only 20K after two years with the only company that Alaska Airlines avoided hiring from I decided to shake the stench of Horizon and seek employment elsewhere.
Took a position at National Airlines as a 757 FO with the promise of upgrading in one year. Nearly doubled my pay and career expectations. Over three years watched as the company fell from rock stat status to shutdown. Broken, poor and now with a wife two sons and one on the way took family back to hometown. Lived in an apartment on unemployment.
Sold Vegas town house for a profit. Sold other investment homes I accumulated on the way and started a real estate investment and development company. Since then we have enjoyed a massively increased standard of living and welcomed our fourth son a year ago. I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student.
There is much more detail, job situations and layoffs that I left out but this is a good summary. Anyone can play an armchair quarterback but unless you were in my shoes at the time and without a crystal ball to tell the future it is difficult to judge. I played my hand the best I could with the information and opportunities I had. My generation had a hard go of it. Among my peers I am in the top 10% as far as reaching aviation success goes. Of my ground school class at Horizon 90% are either still there, left for a worse job or are out of aviation.
Had someone came to me in my college years and laid out the odds and statistics as I attempt to do here I never would have taken lesson one. I love flying as much as the next guy but my life's goal is for overall success and not just to reach the left seat of an airliner. The only place to get information about flying at the time was from magazines and trade journals. They made aviation seem like a good career field and a sound place to invest myself. I don't fell that way now.
As you all know it is obvious that aviation is on the slow grade down to well below medicority. My overall desire for life success has forced me to see some unflattering things about my chosen career and its future. For over 20 years I made a detailed study of the industry, where it is going and what it takes to succeed and for myself determined that I had reached a place from which I could not win and still hold on to a dying career.
You guys are the last of my flying career. I have nothing else in my day that even reminds me of my flying past except my memories and debating issues with you all. I love flying as much as the next guy but have seen behind the curtain and am trying to spread the word. Take it or leave it.
In conclusion I would like to add that my story in aviation is not over yet. I am 40 years old now and still have many years of eligibility left to reach a place of aviation satisfaction. In addition many of you also have plenty of years to see your fairytale careers come crashing down. I wish harm to no one but offer caution. No one is safe anymore.
SKyHigh
Thank you for sharing your story. I always wondered about it. I am sorry things didnt work out for you, but dude, you arent the only one that has had his deam go south. It was NEVER my dream to be an airline pilot. I ALWAYS had it in mind to be a career Air Force pilot and General Officer. I grew up in the Air Force (My dad). F-4's and C-130's literally in my backyard. But when in college, my eyesite went a little bad and I was told I could never fly in the military. I gave up on aviation and went into the Army and became a grunt. But still had an inkling to fly so I took civilian lessons and found out I could be a civilian pilot and here I am today ac ommercial multi engine pilot. SO I am very proud of myself.
You owned an airplane and a condo? I could never even think of owning anything like that. So, please dont tell me about your financial woes. You owned an airplane. The only thing I own is a car. You have investment propery. Not me. So, excuse me if I find it a little hard to feel yor pain.
From your message, it seems like you are looking more for a lifestyle than enjoying yourself and thats where we differ. I love to fly. If I never become an airline pilot, I will go back to the police deparment and get into the aviation unit. I dont have to have a big house and fancy car. Again, I was never used to it before so I would never know what I was missing. I think you grew up with that stuff and so when you lost it you couldnt handle it. ALso, and this is none of my business, but there is a reason I am 38 and not married with no kids, I sacraficed a family early to have a career. You had a family while trying to make a career and I tell young peole all the time that makes things a lot harder. If I were you I probably would have waited to have kids until I was stable in my career.
Aviation is a good career. People just have to realize that airline flying is NOT the only career in aviation. But folks are focused onthe big house and the fancy car. You had a lot of aviation jobs that I would love to have (flying for forestry, bush flying) Man I wish I had those kinds of jobs.
Just my thoughts though
04-02-2007, 10:35 AM
#42
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Correction
There are those who make it. Those who quit. And then there are those who don't quit don't make it and loose everything.
Just think of me as the warning on cigarette boxes. Perhaps anything to ardent smokers but hopefully causes others to take pause.
SkyHigh
Just think of me as the warning on cigarette boxes. Perhaps anything to ardent smokers but hopefully causes others to take pause.
SkyHigh
04-02-2007, 10:55 AM
#43
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Good Times
I will agree that the three stories at the beginning of this thread don't happen very often, however I don't think the dream job is nearly as unattainable as SkyHigh believes.
I didn't have many connections with major airlines so I went to an aviation school. I ended up doing an internship with a major and making some great friends and connnections. Most people have their own interesting story.
I really enjoy talking to guys about how they made it to the majors. A lot of them spent time at questionable cargo outfits, some washed planes for some right seat time in a corporate jet, but very few walked on to a regional jet out of college and had their father walk their resume in when they turned 26.
I think the main problem here is the lack of perspective. Major jobs have been virtually non-existant for almost 6 years!!! The time will come where you apply to majors like you now apply to regionals. No internal rec will simply delay your call from 1 month to 3 months. The industry is changing. We can all see it, I hope you do too SH
I didn't have many connections with major airlines so I went to an aviation school. I ended up doing an internship with a major and making some great friends and connnections. Most people have their own interesting story.
I really enjoy talking to guys about how they made it to the majors. A lot of them spent time at questionable cargo outfits, some washed planes for some right seat time in a corporate jet, but very few walked on to a regional jet out of college and had their father walk their resume in when they turned 26.
I think the main problem here is the lack of perspective. Major jobs have been virtually non-existant for almost 6 years!!! The time will come where you apply to majors like you now apply to regionals. No internal rec will simply delay your call from 1 month to 3 months. The industry is changing. We can all see it, I hope you do too SH
The good times sell pilot licences but what I focus on is the averages over time. During the last six years most of an entire generation had their dreams cut short or snuffed out completely. Things seem better for the next, just wash the blood away and forget about the last six years. However we still have a few legacy carriers teetering in the financial winds. No one is truly safe.
It might be tempting to put up a victory banner because a handful of pilots made it to the few companies that are hiring, but when taken into context of the last 6 years it will take a decade of huge and brisk hiring to get back to where we should be at by now.
What I see is that a few people will get jobs but to what future ends? More work less pay no benefits. Ultimately everyone will be reduced to the lowest common denominator.
SkyHigh
04-02-2007, 11:04 AM
#44
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
You most of all
SkyHigh,
Thank you for sharing your story. I always wondered about it. I am sorry things didnt work out for you, but dude, you arent the only one that has had his deam go south. It was NEVER my dream to be an airline pilot. I ALWAYS had it in mind to be a career Air Force pilot and General Officer. I grew up in the Air Force (My dad). F-4's and C-130's literally in my backyard. But when in college, my eyesite went a little bad and I was told I could never fly in the military. I gave up on aviation and went into the Army and became a grunt. But still had an inkling to fly so I took civilian lessons and found out I could be a civilian pilot and here I am today ac ommercial multi engine pilot. SO I am very proud of myself.
You owned an airplane and a condo? I could never even think of owning anything like that. So, please dont tell me about your financial woes. You owned an airplane. The only thing I own is a car. You have investment propery. Not me. So, excuse me if I find it a little hard to feel yor pain.
From your message, it seems like you are looking more for a lifestyle than enjoying yourself and thats where we differ. I love to fly. If I never become an airline pilot, I will go back to the police deparment and get into the aviation unit. I dont have to have a big house and fancy car. Again, I was never used to it before so I would never know what I was missing. I think you grew up with that stuff and so when you lost it you couldnt handle it. ALso, and this is none of my business, but there is a reason I am 38 and not married with no kids, I sacraficed a family early to have a career. You had a family while trying to make a career and I tell young peole all the time that makes things a lot harder. If I were you I probably would have waited to have kids until I was stable in my career.
Aviation is a good career. People just have to realize that airline flying is NOT the only career in aviation. But folks are focused onthe big house and the fancy car. You had a lot of aviation jobs that I would love to have (flying for forestry, bush flying) Man I wish I had those kinds of jobs.
Just my thoughts though
Thank you for sharing your story. I always wondered about it. I am sorry things didnt work out for you, but dude, you arent the only one that has had his deam go south. It was NEVER my dream to be an airline pilot. I ALWAYS had it in mind to be a career Air Force pilot and General Officer. I grew up in the Air Force (My dad). F-4's and C-130's literally in my backyard. But when in college, my eyesite went a little bad and I was told I could never fly in the military. I gave up on aviation and went into the Army and became a grunt. But still had an inkling to fly so I took civilian lessons and found out I could be a civilian pilot and here I am today ac ommercial multi engine pilot. SO I am very proud of myself.
You owned an airplane and a condo? I could never even think of owning anything like that. So, please dont tell me about your financial woes. You owned an airplane. The only thing I own is a car. You have investment propery. Not me. So, excuse me if I find it a little hard to feel yor pain.
From your message, it seems like you are looking more for a lifestyle than enjoying yourself and thats where we differ. I love to fly. If I never become an airline pilot, I will go back to the police deparment and get into the aviation unit. I dont have to have a big house and fancy car. Again, I was never used to it before so I would never know what I was missing. I think you grew up with that stuff and so when you lost it you couldnt handle it. ALso, and this is none of my business, but there is a reason I am 38 and not married with no kids, I sacraficed a family early to have a career. You had a family while trying to make a career and I tell young peole all the time that makes things a lot harder. If I were you I probably would have waited to have kids until I was stable in my career.
Aviation is a good career. People just have to realize that airline flying is NOT the only career in aviation. But folks are focused onthe big house and the fancy car. You had a lot of aviation jobs that I would love to have (flying for forestry, bush flying) Man I wish I had those kinds of jobs.
Just my thoughts though
As for my airlplane and houses I had to live like a rat for most of my career. I lived in laundry rooms, garages, in my truck and always with tons of room mates. The money I saved was spent on flying and ultimately on real estate investments. Over time the real estate grew. You could easily do the same but I would skip the airplane part.
It sounds to me like you most of all can not afford another career dead end. Perhaps you should consider the pattern of your life and try to break out of what sounds like a self defeating cycle. I had to do the same in regards to my aviation career.
Skyhigh
04-02-2007, 11:32 AM
#45
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
I did have a good run and was able to expereice a broad range of flying jobs. Many have envyed my resume but I wasn't out there to write a book or fill a photo album. My aim was to get a major airline job and they don't care about things like that. I had to take the fringe jobs because that was all that was being offered. At any moment I would have gladly traded it all for a senority number at Alaska Airlines.
As for my airlplane and houses I had to live like a rat for most of my career. I lived in laundry rooms, garages, in my truck and always with tons of room mates. The money I saved was spent on flying and ultimately on real estate investments. Over time the real estate grew. You could easily do the same but I would skip the airplane part.
It sounds to me like you most of all can not afford another career dead end. Perhaps you should consider the pattern of your life and try to break out of what sounds like a self defeating cycle. I had to do the same in regards to my aviation career.
Skyhigh
As for my airlplane and houses I had to live like a rat for most of my career. I lived in laundry rooms, garages, in my truck and always with tons of room mates. The money I saved was spent on flying and ultimately on real estate investments. Over time the real estate grew. You could easily do the same but I would skip the airplane part.
It sounds to me like you most of all can not afford another career dead end. Perhaps you should consider the pattern of your life and try to break out of what sounds like a self defeating cycle. I had to do the same in regards to my aviation career.
Skyhigh
04-02-2007, 12:35 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Posts: 228
I don't know of a single pilot who just scrapped by all of his flight career and got into a flight instructor, regional, or major airline job by the skin of his teeth. You repeatedly say that the "dream" stories don't happen...but everyone on this forum have several experiences where they have been very lucky to be in the place they are now.
People don't just barely scrape by and get a job they want...They get a job because they want it. They work hard for it and Darwin wins. Only the best survive...and who do you think I want to be flying with anyways?
People don't just barely scrape by and get a job they want...They get a job because they want it. They work hard for it and Darwin wins. Only the best survive...and who do you think I want to be flying with anyways?
04-02-2007, 12:52 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 657
I have to agree with these statements. These are statements, I personally live by. Seems that everyone believes the Grass-Is-Always-Greener on the other side. I am in charge of my own destiny, my own happiness, my own misery, my own success and even failure. I live by what I choose in life. Here is a book that might be applicable for some. "Excuse me, Your Life is Waiting" It's written by Linda Grabhorn. Simple read. Easy to Understand. And right on.
Many experiences and careers I have followed are because I needed to prove to myself that I could tackle the challenge and because I had interest in them. Many I still hold interest in; others were just stopping points along the way in determining what I really liked and wanted to do. My life is in constant motion and change.
Some people study to be an accountant in college and are an accountant for their WHOLE life. I am not one of those types of people. There are times when I wish I was, but it's not me. I don't mind change and actually thrive on it. Some others don't.
I did enjoy SKYHigh's story though. He's only 40. He may decide in the coming years to reapply himself to flying at the airlines again, to capitalize on his childhood dream . . . to seek the gratification he has always wanted. Then fly for a few years and move onto something else. It doesn't matter what he chooses as long he is comfortable with his decisions and reasons for making them.
04-02-2007, 12:54 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 148
I'll have to agree and disagree with you on that. The best will survive ultimately because they're focused enough to have other alternatives(ie skills and investments). Only the lucky survive in aviation.
04-02-2007, 01:17 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
I think other people have been very successful by broadening their horizons. I know more than one SWA Capt who, when hired, were really hoping for a job with Delta/UAL etc. In other words, SWA was their consolation prize for not getting the job they REALLY wanted. But instead of turning their noses up, they're now some of the highest paid in the industry.
All my pilot friends say the same thing:"The best company to work for is the one that hires you!"
So what's the deal Skyhigh? How come you didn't apply to SWA or any number of other major airlines? They were ALL hiring in the late 90's.
04-02-2007, 01:54 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 623
Thanks, but I wouldnt consider my life choices as dead end. I was doing fine in the military. I chose toleave. I was doing fine as a cop. Again, I chose to leave. I can always go back to policing. I can back on active duty. I am working on a Masters in Aeronautical Science, so I could go to a university with an aviation program like Purdue or Arizona State and teach. I can fly for law enforcement, or I can go back in the army full time.
I always leave myself an out. Have options is my motto.
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