Skyhigh
04-02-2007, 06:56 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: WB Bunkie
Posts: 1,246
I will agree that the three stories at the beginning of this thread don't happen very often, however I don't think the dream job is nearly as unattainable as SkyHigh believes.
I didn't have many connections with major airlines so I went to an aviation school. I ended up doing an internship with a major and making some great friends and connnections. Most people have their own interesting story.
I really enjoy talking to guys about how they made it to the majors. A lot of them spent time at questionable cargo outfits, some washed planes for some right seat time in a corporate jet, but very few walked on to a regional jet out of college and had their father walk their resume in when they turned 26.
I think the main problem here is the lack of perspective. Major jobs have been virtually non-existant for almost 6 years!!! The time will come where you apply to majors like you now apply to regionals. No internal rec will simply delay your call from 1 month to 3 months. The industry is changing. We can all see it, I hope you do too SH
I didn't have many connections with major airlines so I went to an aviation school. I ended up doing an internship with a major and making some great friends and connnections. Most people have their own interesting story.
I really enjoy talking to guys about how they made it to the majors. A lot of them spent time at questionable cargo outfits, some washed planes for some right seat time in a corporate jet, but very few walked on to a regional jet out of college and had their father walk their resume in when they turned 26.
I think the main problem here is the lack of perspective. Major jobs have been virtually non-existant for almost 6 years!!! The time will come where you apply to majors like you now apply to regionals. No internal rec will simply delay your call from 1 month to 3 months. The industry is changing. We can all see it, I hope you do too SH
04-02-2007, 06:59 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Flight Instructor
Posts: 623
SkyHigh's opinions are very valuable...he's speaking for many others just like himself who you don't hear from simply because they have moved on and don't spend time on aviation forums.
For those of us that are still in the game, it's a constant reminder to keep our options open, don't rely 100% on anything aviation, and to keep that fall-back plan on the back burner.
For the youngsters who grew up with an entitlement outlook and simply haven't been around long enough to get kicked around by the real world (yet!)...listen to SH! Be aware that you will likely have some bad experiences in this business (and life in general). Maybe it doesn't seem like it could happen to you (it never does in the movies), but if you anticpate the sucker punch a little bit you will be better prepared to roll with it. Ultimately, how you respond to adversity is up to you, but there's a lot to be said for perserverance (and luck, don't ever forget luck!).
For those of us that are still in the game, it's a constant reminder to keep our options open, don't rely 100% on anything aviation, and to keep that fall-back plan on the back burner.
For the youngsters who grew up with an entitlement outlook and simply haven't been around long enough to get kicked around by the real world (yet!)...listen to SH! Be aware that you will likely have some bad experiences in this business (and life in general). Maybe it doesn't seem like it could happen to you (it never does in the movies), but if you anticpate the sucker punch a little bit you will be better prepared to roll with it. Ultimately, how you respond to adversity is up to you, but there's a lot to be said for perserverance (and luck, don't ever forget luck!).
I disagree to a certainextent on thisI am 38 years old and acareer changer so Shyhogh's dismal look onaviation doesnt really move me that much. Plus I have a of friends and contacts that are currently flying for regional and majors that encourage me.
I agree that you should always have a backup plan. I have law enforcement and military experience to fall back on pus a college degree. I think the problem is people are so fixed on "flying" They neglect the other avenues in aviation. If I never become an airline pilt why couldnt I becme a station manager or airport ops director? The skys are the limit. Heck, een if I do become an airline pilot, I dont want to just fly for 20 years. I want to be the chief pilot, check arimen, director of flight ops. Dont limit yourelf.
Skyhigh paints a dismal picture to new wannabe pilots. He gives no encouragement at all. The truth is al profesions have a bad side. Aviation is no different. But you dont hear doctors telling medical students to beware and dont come into this field because of rising health insurance.
You dont hear lawyers telling law students not to come into the field of law because society looks down on lawyers. You dont hear police officers telling folks to say away because of low pay and high risks.
I am not saying to blow sunshine but Skyhigh gives absolutley NO encouragement what so ever. If he gave both sides thats one thing, but he doesnt.
Like I said I am older and more mature so it doesnt really bother me. But I wrk with youth groups encouraging them to go into aviation and to be honest I dont tell them about tis website because I dont want them to be exposed to the negativity.
04-02-2007, 07:02 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
they say that misery loves company......it's obvious that it is skyhighs motive to drag everyone down with him. everytime he sees a plane flying it kills him. everytime he's at a family party and people ask him about airplanes and why he quit, it kills him. on bring your daddy to school day, when his kids wish that they could say that their dad is an airline pilot, it kills him. skyhigh you are the epitime of beating a dead horse......go away!
04-02-2007, 07:18 AM
#34
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,602
More "glass half full" from our favorite cynic
Over the years I have had to accept some difficult truths.
If one wishes to become an Airline Pilot then time as a CFI is near worthless because airlines don't care how you get your time. They only care if you get there faster and in bigger equipment than the other guy. Working as a CFI for most takes many years to build hours. The pay is in-humanly low. The skills learned are unnecessary and do not help the pilot to be better suited for life as an airline pilot. I was a CFI for a long time. It did not help me or any of my friends.
FO's have a near worthless place in the aircraft and it is proven in the market place. After nearly 20 years of effort unless you have 1000 hours of turbine, or better, PIC your resume might as well be wrapping fish. No one cares or values FO time. It is a supurfulous position. The days of your life spent as an FO are a total waste as far as your career goes. ...........................
SkyHigh
If one wishes to become an Airline Pilot then time as a CFI is near worthless because airlines don't care how you get your time. They only care if you get there faster and in bigger equipment than the other guy. Working as a CFI for most takes many years to build hours. The pay is in-humanly low. The skills learned are unnecessary and do not help the pilot to be better suited for life as an airline pilot. I was a CFI for a long time. It did not help me or any of my friends.
FO's have a near worthless place in the aircraft and it is proven in the market place. After nearly 20 years of effort unless you have 1000 hours of turbine, or better, PIC your resume might as well be wrapping fish. No one cares or values FO time. It is a supurfulous position. The days of your life spent as an FO are a total waste as far as your career goes. ...........................
SkyHigh
) and con's of the aviation industry. CFI time is not useless. I'm sure some where in (his) 2000+ postings, SkyHigh has even indicated so. Most regional pilots have instructed to get the (ever decreasing) TT needed to apply to a regional. That said, I would agree that (as has been written too many times on this forum) that regional pay is abismyl low, and FO ridiculously so. 
Having said that, just because FO's aren't paid (in the regionals) as they should be, doesn't mean its an "worthless" job and not necessary to the safe and proper operation of a commercial airliner. While every captain has flown with less than stellar FO's, most FO's not only help the normal operation of the AC but are vital to ensure a safe return in the even of a major failure with a return to land. How do I know?? Well thankfully, not from an actual emergency but from numerous requls over the years in the sim and a fair amount of "high work load" normal ops where four hands definitely made what could have been an ugly situation much less stress free.
As far as the assertion that FO time is worthless, just look at the required time of most airlines, TT is always greater that required PIC. Yes, turbine time, (in the current scheme of things) is required, and either military or civilian twin PIC is a requirement, no airline expects (and I'm guess would be skeptical with the lack there of) of no FO time. I personally would prefer (my) FO's to have flown (in a prior life) as an FO, and I'm guessing most capts would feel the same.
Sky, why don't you take a break from beating on avaition and either jump back in
, or just cut your ties. Enjoy your current occupation, it has obvious served you and your family well (time with and financially) take a break from "saving" the young' ens who still aspire to what you have (given up) on.
And one last thing, all (former) Flying Tigers were offered positions at FedEx but junior ones were on furlow (some very long) prior to 1987. JFYI
04-02-2007, 07:51 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 382
they say that misery loves company......it's obvious that it is skyhighs motive to drag everyone down with him. everytime he sees a plane flying it kills him. everytime he's at a family party and people ask him about airplanes and why he quit, it kills him. on bring your daddy to school day, when his kids wish that they could say that their dad is an airline pilot, it kills him. skyhigh you are the epitime of beating a dead horse......go away!
I couldn't have said it better!
04-02-2007, 07:57 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 382
You don't become a fedex or SWA capt by quitting the regionals because they didn't pay you enough. Maybe there is one good thing about the conditions of the regionals, it creates an atmosphere that requires a perseverence of character and weeds out people who shouldnt be given the opportunity to fly the dream job in aviation because they didn't have what it takes.
04-02-2007, 08:00 AM
#37
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
SkyHigh
I went to a four year state university and earned a degree in business and aviation. Graduated in June of 1989 with the dream of working for Alaska Airlines.
Went on to work as a CFI in the early 1990's. Recession in 1992 put me out of a job. Drove all over the country looking for work. Bought my own Cessna 150 and started a rebel flight school out of the back of my truck, (which was also my home at the time). Got a job as an Alaskan 135 bush pilot. Lived and flew in the bush for several years. Moved on to contract forest service work for two years.
Secured a job as a 135 jet charter and air ambulance pilot. Earned $850 per month and had a 18 day on 4 day of schedule 24 hours a day on 30 minute call out reserve. Flew six different aircraft types, took 12 check rides a year and was a captain on half of them. Ran out of savings after first year.
Went to Horizon Air with the promise of a one year upgrade and F28 jet time. Learned that Horizon Air was the one place in all of aviation that I would most likely never go to Alaska Airlines from. After 2 years upgrade was pushed back to almost 4. Newly married and earning only 20K after two years with the only company that Alaska Airlines avoided hiring from I decided to shake the stench of Horizon and seek employment elsewhere.
Took a position at National Airlines as a 757 FO with the promise of upgrading in one year. Nearly doubled my pay and career expectations. Over three years watched as the company fell from rock stat status to shutdown. Broken, poor and now with a wife two sons and one on the way took family back to hometown. Lived in an apartment on unemployment.
Sold Vegas town house for a profit. Sold other investment homes I accumulated on the way and started a real estate investment and development company. Since then we have enjoyed a massively increased standard of living and welcomed our fourth son a year ago. I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student.
There is much more detail, job situations and layoffs that I left out but this is a good summary. Anyone can play an armchair quarterback but unless you were in my shoes at the time and without a crystal ball to tell the future it is difficult to judge. I played my hand the best I could with the information and opportunities I had. My generation had a hard go of it. Among my peers I am in the top 10% as far as reaching aviation success goes. Of my ground school class at Horizon 90% are either still there, left for a worse job or are out of aviation.
Had someone came to me in my college years and laid out the odds and statistics as I attempt to do here I never would have taken lesson one. I love flying as much as the next guy but my life's goal is for overall success and not just to reach the left seat of an airliner. The only place to get information about flying at the time was from magazines and trade journals. They made aviation seem like a good career field and a sound place to invest myself. I don't fell that way now.
As you all know it is obvious that aviation is on the slow grade down to well below medicority. My overall desire for life success has forced me to see some unflattering things about my chosen career and its future. For over 20 years I made a detailed study of the industry, where it is going and what it takes to succeed and for myself determined that I had reached a place from which I could not win and still hold on to a dying career.
You guys are the last of my flying career. I have nothing else in my day that even reminds me of my flying past except my memories and debating issues with you all. I love flying as much as the next guy but have seen behind the curtain and am trying to spread the word. Take it or leave it.
In conclusion I would like to add that my story in aviation is not over yet. I am 40 years old now and still have many years of eligibility left to reach a place of aviation satisfaction. In addition many of you also have plenty of years to see your fairytale careers come crashing down. I wish harm to no one but offer caution. No one is safe anymore.
SKyHigh
Went on to work as a CFI in the early 1990's. Recession in 1992 put me out of a job. Drove all over the country looking for work. Bought my own Cessna 150 and started a rebel flight school out of the back of my truck, (which was also my home at the time). Got a job as an Alaskan 135 bush pilot. Lived and flew in the bush for several years. Moved on to contract forest service work for two years.
Secured a job as a 135 jet charter and air ambulance pilot. Earned $850 per month and had a 18 day on 4 day of schedule 24 hours a day on 30 minute call out reserve. Flew six different aircraft types, took 12 check rides a year and was a captain on half of them. Ran out of savings after first year.
Went to Horizon Air with the promise of a one year upgrade and F28 jet time. Learned that Horizon Air was the one place in all of aviation that I would most likely never go to Alaska Airlines from. After 2 years upgrade was pushed back to almost 4. Newly married and earning only 20K after two years with the only company that Alaska Airlines avoided hiring from I decided to shake the stench of Horizon and seek employment elsewhere.
Took a position at National Airlines as a 757 FO with the promise of upgrading in one year. Nearly doubled my pay and career expectations. Over three years watched as the company fell from rock stat status to shutdown. Broken, poor and now with a wife two sons and one on the way took family back to hometown. Lived in an apartment on unemployment.
Sold Vegas town house for a profit. Sold other investment homes I accumulated on the way and started a real estate investment and development company. Since then we have enjoyed a massively increased standard of living and welcomed our fourth son a year ago. I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student.
There is much more detail, job situations and layoffs that I left out but this is a good summary. Anyone can play an armchair quarterback but unless you were in my shoes at the time and without a crystal ball to tell the future it is difficult to judge. I played my hand the best I could with the information and opportunities I had. My generation had a hard go of it. Among my peers I am in the top 10% as far as reaching aviation success goes. Of my ground school class at Horizon 90% are either still there, left for a worse job or are out of aviation.
Had someone came to me in my college years and laid out the odds and statistics as I attempt to do here I never would have taken lesson one. I love flying as much as the next guy but my life's goal is for overall success and not just to reach the left seat of an airliner. The only place to get information about flying at the time was from magazines and trade journals. They made aviation seem like a good career field and a sound place to invest myself. I don't fell that way now.
As you all know it is obvious that aviation is on the slow grade down to well below medicority. My overall desire for life success has forced me to see some unflattering things about my chosen career and its future. For over 20 years I made a detailed study of the industry, where it is going and what it takes to succeed and for myself determined that I had reached a place from which I could not win and still hold on to a dying career.
You guys are the last of my flying career. I have nothing else in my day that even reminds me of my flying past except my memories and debating issues with you all. I love flying as much as the next guy but have seen behind the curtain and am trying to spread the word. Take it or leave it.
In conclusion I would like to add that my story in aviation is not over yet. I am 40 years old now and still have many years of eligibility left to reach a place of aviation satisfaction. In addition many of you also have plenty of years to see your fairytale careers come crashing down. I wish harm to no one but offer caution. No one is safe anymore.
SKyHigh
04-02-2007, 08:03 AM
#38
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
they say that misery loves company......it's obvious that it is skyhighs motive to drag everyone down with him. everytime he sees a plane flying it kills him. everytime he's at a family party and people ask him about airplanes and why he quit, it kills him. on bring your daddy to school day, when his kids wish that they could say that their dad is an airline pilot, it kills him. skyhigh you are the epitime of beating a dead horse......go away!
Why is it alright for you to be here presenting your opinions and not me?
SkyHigh
04-02-2007, 08:07 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Bench Warmer
Posts: 241
Couldn't agree more!
You don't become a fedex or SWA capt by quitting the regionals because they didn't pay you enough. Maybe there is one good thing about the conditions of the regionals, it creates an atmosphere that requires a perseverence of character and weeds out people who shouldnt be given the opportunity to fly the dream job in aviation because they didn't have what it takes.
04-02-2007, 08:31 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Bench Warmer
Posts: 241
There is no fairytale story...there are those that make it and those that quit. Those that make it did not get into this because of the uniform, the pay, or the days off...if you did you end up quitting.
Those of us that did this because we love to fly...we MADE it happen regardless of the risk:
Flight instructing, flying bank checks at night, flying weather modification, or getting your ass shot at over an unfriendly country. Easy to talk about luck when you quit...there is nothing unlucky about that. I would like to see you tell any of the military pilots I know that their career, training, and accomplishments were a result of luck.
There is no such thing as luck in my book...there is only preparation meeting opportunity and you have to make those things happen! Unless you have a silver spoon in your mouth you need to "pay your dues" at any job.
Your opinion is only useful to those out there on this forum that went into aviation for the wrong reasons. As you said..."I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student." Obviously flying an airplane was not part of that dream.
Just as you warn of the possible downfalls in aviation why don't you spend your time warning everyone else that the 'sky' is falling? Those guys at Enron sure could have used your mindset.
90% of the guys you know didn't make it..."birds of a feather"… 90% of the guys I know DID make it...I guess that is why in my career I never hung around guys like you.
BWP…out
Those of us that did this because we love to fly...we MADE it happen regardless of the risk:
Flight instructing, flying bank checks at night, flying weather modification, or getting your ass shot at over an unfriendly country. Easy to talk about luck when you quit...there is nothing unlucky about that. I would like to see you tell any of the military pilots I know that their career, training, and accomplishments were a result of luck.
There is no such thing as luck in my book...there is only preparation meeting opportunity and you have to make those things happen! Unless you have a silver spoon in your mouth you need to "pay your dues" at any job.
Your opinion is only useful to those out there on this forum that went into aviation for the wrong reasons. As you said..."I am currently living a lifestyle I dreamed of as a college student." Obviously flying an airplane was not part of that dream.
Just as you warn of the possible downfalls in aviation why don't you spend your time warning everyone else that the 'sky' is falling? Those guys at Enron sure could have used your mindset.
90% of the guys you know didn't make it..."birds of a feather"… 90% of the guys I know DID make it...I guess that is why in my career I never hung around guys like you.
BWP…out
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