Public demand for more experienced pilots
03-07-2007, 12:05 AM
#81
La Familia Delta
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
Posts: 2,467
DME, raising the bar and stopping pay to play programs sounds like a great idea. whats your plan to fix this little problem?
i think the companies themselves dont care about experience. example: im a reservist who applied to XJT with 1000TT, mostly heavy international time. (their mins were 600TT at the time) and they would not give me an interview. i think this was the case because they knew id be one of the first guys to jump ship when i got a better opportunity, or they got ****ed at guys taking mil leave who knows.
i believe that regionals would much rather hire a CFI who doesnt know any better, and mold them into exactly what they want... someone who is grateful for being there. they turn down people with my experience because they know my expectations are different.
i may be completely off here, but its just another perspective i guess
i think the companies themselves dont care about experience. example: im a reservist who applied to XJT with 1000TT, mostly heavy international time. (their mins were 600TT at the time) and they would not give me an interview. i think this was the case because they knew id be one of the first guys to jump ship when i got a better opportunity, or they got ****ed at guys taking mil leave who knows.
i believe that regionals would much rather hire a CFI who doesnt know any better, and mold them into exactly what they want... someone who is grateful for being there. they turn down people with my experience because they know my expectations are different.
i may be completely off here, but its just another perspective i guess
03-07-2007, 04:39 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 170 babysitter
Posts: 417
Be carefull what your saying sir...
Have you ever heard that the Instrument Rating is just a "License to learn instruments"?
To get an instrument rating all you need to do is demonstrate sucessfully those areas of operation prescribed in the PTS. If you demonstrate them correctly and to standards you get the OK to fly in the clouds as PIC, even though you don't know jack about instrument flying. I think we all know that we didn't know anything about instrument flying until we actually got out there and did it.
With the being said...
Let's say a guy with his ink still wet on his COMM-AMEL ticket goes to Mesa Pilot Program and gets hired. He is trained to pass the ERJ sim. Boom- he's got his SIC in Type. However he doesn't have any real world experience doing anything but training (a little time building during his COMM). Does this give him the right to fly around 50 paying passengers- considering he hasn't even been a true decision maker of an airplane...ever?!
What would be better a ERJ SIC type on a guy who was a flight instructor for 500 hours or an ERJ SIC on a guy who didn't even study for his initial CFI?
Look, airlines should implement a 500 hour DUAL given rule prior to letting guys interview. This would destroy these pay to play programs, etc. This wouldn't raise pay, or improve QOL, but it would increase the competency and capability of the first officers in the cockpit. I too believe that the captain on a ERJ has 51 people to worry about and take care of- why in the hell should he take on one that is going to need the most attention.
Unions are going to have to sooner or later put a clause in the scope saying captains won't fly with any first officer with under 500 hours total time.
Flight instructors make great first officers...19 year old 300 hour wonders (ALLATP guys) belong nowhere near an airliner...hell they can barely fly a 172 straight and level.
So guys, unions, management, let's raise the bar bring some experience back to the cockpit and please please please stop these pay to play programs.
I typed a lot.
Have you ever heard that the Instrument Rating is just a "License to learn instruments"?
To get an instrument rating all you need to do is demonstrate sucessfully those areas of operation prescribed in the PTS. If you demonstrate them correctly and to standards you get the OK to fly in the clouds as PIC, even though you don't know jack about instrument flying. I think we all know that we didn't know anything about instrument flying until we actually got out there and did it.
With the being said...
Let's say a guy with his ink still wet on his COMM-AMEL ticket goes to Mesa Pilot Program and gets hired. He is trained to pass the ERJ sim. Boom- he's got his SIC in Type. However he doesn't have any real world experience doing anything but training (a little time building during his COMM). Does this give him the right to fly around 50 paying passengers- considering he hasn't even been a true decision maker of an airplane...ever?!
What would be better a ERJ SIC type on a guy who was a flight instructor for 500 hours or an ERJ SIC on a guy who didn't even study for his initial CFI?
Look, airlines should implement a 500 hour DUAL given rule prior to letting guys interview. This would destroy these pay to play programs, etc. This wouldn't raise pay, or improve QOL, but it would increase the competency and capability of the first officers in the cockpit. I too believe that the captain on a ERJ has 51 people to worry about and take care of- why in the hell should he take on one that is going to need the most attention.
Unions are going to have to sooner or later put a clause in the scope saying captains won't fly with any first officer with under 500 hours total time.
Flight instructors make great first officers...19 year old 300 hour wonders (ALLATP guys) belong nowhere near an airliner...hell they can barely fly a 172 straight and level.
So guys, unions, management, let's raise the bar bring some experience back to the cockpit and please please please stop these pay to play programs.
I typed a lot.
DME, FYI the Mesa program is not pay to play. They pay for ratings just like anyone else at an FBO (albiet a much higher price) and interview like the rest of the folks when they are done.
03-07-2007, 06:01 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 150 left seat if I'm lucky
Posts: 172
I'm going to explain something to you that is obviously going to be over your head, but people with brains here will be entertained by your response.
At any given time (say 500 hours), there will exist a Gaussian curve of safety. This curve will distribute at a higher level for people with more hours, meaning the median pilot at 500 hours will be safer than the median pilot at 250 hours.
Just because you can give me anomalies at either end of the curve, it does not discount the law of averages.
Let me break some other news to you: Just because your grandma smoked 2 packs a day and lived to 95 doesn’t mean smoking is perfectly fine for everyone.
And another one: Just because you can drink to a blood alcohol of 0.09 and drive home fine, doesn’t mean we should raise the legal limit for everyone so you can enjoy the extra beer.
03-07-2007, 07:54 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
Posts: 1,349
I'm going to explain something to you that is obviously going to be over your head, but people with brains here will be entertained by your response.
At any given time (say 500 hours), there will exist a Gaussian curve of safety. This curve will distribute at a higher level for people with more hours, meaning the median pilot at 500 hours will be safer than the median pilot at 250 hours.
Now I would like to see the statistics that were entered to come to the above conclusions.
03-07-2007, 07:57 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 170 babysitter
Posts: 417
03-07-2007, 08:15 AM
#86
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,205
[QUOTE=Ftrooppilot;129258]
The large majority of fighter pilots are over thirty...
4-5 years of college: age 23
1 Year of Pool/OCS: Age 24
3 Years UPT/RAG/FRS: Age 27
On average, a lot of guys did something else prior to becoming officers and/or getting a flight slot (enlisted, office job, etc), so I guess the average age of a BRAND-NEW guy is 27-29.
So the average age of fighter pilots is probably mid/high-thirties.
Also 1,000 hours of fighter time is the equivalent of 3,000 hours non-military turbine PIC...this is the formula the airlines have always used for comparison (you still need the 1,000 though).
Our passengers really do believe that all jet airline pilots flew F-15's, fought in one of the gulf wars against swarms of Migs, graduated from top gun, have 15,000 hours and 500 carrier traps, and beat out 50 other fighter pilots for that airline job...which presumably pays at least $250K. 
The majority of those F-15 / F-16 F-18 pilots are under thirty and have less than 1,000 hrs.
The majority of those F-15 / F-16 F-18 pilots are under thirty and have less than 1,000 hrs.
The large majority of fighter pilots are over thirty...
4-5 years of college: age 23
1 Year of Pool/OCS: Age 24
3 Years UPT/RAG/FRS: Age 27
On average, a lot of guys did something else prior to becoming officers and/or getting a flight slot (enlisted, office job, etc), so I guess the average age of a BRAND-NEW guy is 27-29.
So the average age of fighter pilots is probably mid/high-thirties.
Also 1,000 hours of fighter time is the equivalent of 3,000 hours non-military turbine PIC...this is the formula the airlines have always used for comparison (you still need the 1,000 though).
03-07-2007, 08:29 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 411
Be carefull what your saying sir...
Have you ever heard that the Instrument Rating is just a "License to learn instruments"?
To get an instrument rating all you need to do is demonstrate sucessfully those areas of operation prescribed in the PTS. If you demonstrate them correctly and to standards you get the OK to fly in the clouds as PIC, even though you don't know jack about instrument flying. I think we all know that we didn't know anything about instrument flying until we actually got out there and did it.
Have you ever heard that the Instrument Rating is just a "License to learn instruments"?
To get an instrument rating all you need to do is demonstrate sucessfully those areas of operation prescribed in the PTS. If you demonstrate them correctly and to standards you get the OK to fly in the clouds as PIC, even though you don't know jack about instrument flying. I think we all know that we didn't know anything about instrument flying until we actually got out there and did it.
With the being said...
Let's say a guy with his ink still wet on his COMM-AMEL ticket goes to Mesa Pilot Program and gets hired. He is trained to pass the ERJ sim. Boom- he's got his SIC in Type. However he doesn't have any real world experience doing anything but training (a little time building during his COMM). Does this give him the right to fly around 50 paying passengers- considering he hasn't even been a true decision maker of an airplane...ever?!
Let's say a guy with his ink still wet on his COMM-AMEL ticket goes to Mesa Pilot Program and gets hired. He is trained to pass the ERJ sim. Boom- he's got his SIC in Type. However he doesn't have any real world experience doing anything but training (a little time building during his COMM). Does this give him the right to fly around 50 paying passengers- considering he hasn't even been a true decision maker of an airplane...ever?!
What would be better a ERJ SIC type on a guy who was a flight instructor for 500 hours or an ERJ SIC on a guy who didn't even study for his initial CFI?
Look, airlines should implement a 500 hour DUAL given rule prior to letting guys interview. This would destroy these pay to play programs, etc. This wouldn't raise pay, or improve QOL, but it would increase the competency and capability of the first officers in the cockpit. I too believe that the captain on a ERJ has 51 people to worry about and take care of- why in the hell should he take on one that is going to need the most attention.
Unions are going to have to sooner or later put a clause in the scope saying captains won't fly with any first officer with under 500 hours total time.
Flight instructors make great first officers...19 year old 300 hour wonders (ALLATP guys) belong nowhere near an airliner...hell they can barely fly a 172 straight and level.
Look, airlines should implement a 500 hour DUAL given rule prior to letting guys interview. This would destroy these pay to play programs, etc. This wouldn't raise pay, or improve QOL, but it would increase the competency and capability of the first officers in the cockpit. I too believe that the captain on a ERJ has 51 people to worry about and take care of- why in the hell should he take on one that is going to need the most attention.
Unions are going to have to sooner or later put a clause in the scope saying captains won't fly with any first officer with under 500 hours total time.
Flight instructors make great first officers...19 year old 300 hour wonders (ALLATP guys) belong nowhere near an airliner...hell they can barely fly a 172 straight and level.
I'm not saying that everyone is ready for an airline straight out of ATP, or any other school. Being an instructor gave me the opportunity to learn an immense amount. But total hours doesn't reflect pilot skill. Quality of training and natural ability do.
03-07-2007, 09:33 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 737 Left
Posts: 828
So are you telling me that you didn't fly on instruments until after you got your cert? Certainly all your licenses are licenses to learn, but the skills you had to demostrate to meet the mins for the PTS satisfy the FAA that you have enough skills to be safe, and for the most part, I have to agree.
Well, he's still not a decision maker, he's an F/O. I'm not saying this is the best pilot in the world, or that he's gonna have all the experience one would ever need, but you can't lump all guys into a basket as bad, simply based on the number of hours they have. Hours of total time are a very poor indicator of pilot skill, that's all I'm saying.
Stop the bus, cause this is where I get off. While I'm not 19, I did attend ATP and can attest that upon finishing that program, you can fly a plane straight and level. Furthermore, you'll have a lot more instrument skills than most "seasoned" CFI's who trained at an FBO and then spent their CFI career flying mid-lifers in the pattern doing touch and go's. Contrast that to a guy who did all his training in a multi and spent hour after hour in a sim practicing every concievable failure in situations that you could not duplicate in an actual plane (much like 121 training), and tell me who's more ready?
I'm not saying that everyone is ready for an airline straight out of ATP, or any other school. Being an instructor gave me the opportunity to learn an immense amount. But total hours doesn't reflect pilot skill. Quality of training and natural ability do.
Well, he's still not a decision maker, he's an F/O. I'm not saying this is the best pilot in the world, or that he's gonna have all the experience one would ever need, but you can't lump all guys into a basket as bad, simply based on the number of hours they have. Hours of total time are a very poor indicator of pilot skill, that's all I'm saying.
Stop the bus, cause this is where I get off. While I'm not 19, I did attend ATP and can attest that upon finishing that program, you can fly a plane straight and level. Furthermore, you'll have a lot more instrument skills than most "seasoned" CFI's who trained at an FBO and then spent their CFI career flying mid-lifers in the pattern doing touch and go's. Contrast that to a guy who did all his training in a multi and spent hour after hour in a sim practicing every concievable failure in situations that you could not duplicate in an actual plane (much like 121 training), and tell me who's more ready?
I'm not saying that everyone is ready for an airline straight out of ATP, or any other school. Being an instructor gave me the opportunity to learn an immense amount. But total hours doesn't reflect pilot skill. Quality of training and natural ability do.
Or do you think that a 251 hour pilot straight from that piece of junk 90 day course is ready to handle an RJ with 51 people onboard?
03-07-2007, 10:06 AM
#89
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: C-172
Posts: 83
Wtf???
I just dont understand how 5-600 more hours of flying back and forth to the practice area doing stalls, turns around a point chandelle's etc, etc.. prepares me for an airline, and don't give me the decision making BS! I mean at my 141 school we can't even go into actual I.F.R, and we are about 170 miles from the nearest Class B or any other airspace where you can get real world experience.....
03-07-2007, 10:14 AM
#90
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,205
I just dont understand how 5-600 more hours of flying back and forth to the practice area doing stalls, turns around a point chandelle's etc, etc.. prepares me for an airline, and don't give me the decision making BS! I mean at my 141 school we can't even go into actual I.F.R, and we are about 170 miles from the nearest Class B or any other airspace where you can get real world experience.....
Go get another 500 hours, then go to an airline and then maybe you will understand.
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