Public demand for more experienced pilots
03-12-2007, 04:00 PM
#131
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Well I will say that having a few hundred hours in a Turbo-Prop was priceless, I was on the SAAB, I envy the guys that flew the beech, I will say that SOME 600 hr CFI's that got into an automated Jet may take longer to acquire stick & Rudder skills, but you can not fault them for being hired with low time, I would of jumped at the chance at a 121 airline with 600hrs, I was lucky enough to be able to Dodge T-Storms and do many a many Expressway Visuals into LGA 
Man I miss it 
Man I miss it
03-14-2007, 04:30 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
My point is that regional airlines only require a meat sack to fill the right seat that meets the FAA minimums. Until now the only reason for the experience requirement was to cut down the number of applicants.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
03-14-2007, 06:16 AM
#133
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
True
My point is that regional airlines only require a meat sack to fill the right seat that meets the FAA minimums. Until now the only reason for the experience requirement was to cut down the number of applicants.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
Skyhigh
03-14-2007, 07:31 AM
#134
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
And Furthermore
My point is that regional airlines only require a meat sack to fill the right seat that meets the FAA minimums. Until now the only reason for the experience requirement was to cut down the number of applicants.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
Wow, that’s a whole new take on CRM! Welcome to Korean Airlines? Heck, I don’t think even the Asian airlines have this kind of disregard for one of the crew members.
FO's get the shaft by unions and are generally considered as half-pilots.
FO's are given menial and mostly unnecessary tasks as busy work.
The public refers to the captain as "pilot". The FO might as well be invisible.
FO's have almost zero individual responsibilities. Their only charge is to serve as back up to the captain.
FO's have almost no voice and power in regards to the chief pilots office.
In summary the only real reason to even have an FO is to serve as a back up if the captain has a coronary, become a depository and whipping post for frustrated captains, be handy as a scapegoat should things go awry and lastly to receive some on the job training. FO's are mostly insignificant and treated as such by the company, the public and most of all by the captain.
SkyHigh
03-14-2007, 05:03 PM
#135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
Skyhigh. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Senior F/O's at my company make 150K plus.
An F/O is a Capt in training, and is treated with as much respect as a Capt by all concerned.
The F/O is an essential cog in the safety wheel, he's there to make sure the Capt doesn't screw up.
The F/O does most of the cockpit setup in the 757. The Capt just checks his work.
A good Capt treats his F/O well, as he's a valuable resource that will keep him out of trouble.
I don't know where you come up with this stuff? Things must have been really bad at National.
I try to ignore most of your posts, but sometimes, for the sake of the truth, I just can't.
You do a great job of painting the worst case scenario. That's not a bad thing for the rest of us to see. I just wish you'd quit making stuff up....
Senior F/O's at my company make 150K plus.
An F/O is a Capt in training, and is treated with as much respect as a Capt by all concerned.
The F/O is an essential cog in the safety wheel, he's there to make sure the Capt doesn't screw up.
The F/O does most of the cockpit setup in the 757. The Capt just checks his work.
A good Capt treats his F/O well, as he's a valuable resource that will keep him out of trouble.
I don't know where you come up with this stuff? Things must have been really bad at National.
I try to ignore most of your posts, but sometimes, for the sake of the truth, I just can't.
You do a great job of painting the worst case scenario. That's not a bad thing for the rest of us to see. I just wish you'd quit making stuff up....
Last edited by de727ups; 03-14-2007 at 05:09 PM.
03-14-2007, 07:34 PM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B727
Posts: 194
I've worked at a bunch of airlines, and never have I seen FOs treated that way. Certainly there are some (very, very few) individual captains that for one reason or another (none valid) treat FOs like dirt. But nowhere, even at bottomfeeders, would that sort of thing be seen as normal or acceptable.
New FO's make less that half of a captains wage at most airlines.
FO's get the shaft by unions and are generally considered as half-pilots.
FO's are given menial and mostly unnecessary tasks as busy work.
The public refers to the captain as "pilot". The FO might as well be invisible.
FO's have almost zero individual responsibilities. Their only charge is to serve as back up to the captain.
FO's have almost no voice and power in regards to the chief pilots office.
In summary the only real reason to even have an FO is to serve as a back up if the captain has a coronary, become a depository and whipping post for frustrated captains, be handy as a scapegoat should things go awry and lastly to receive some on the job training. FO's are mostly insignificant and treated as such by the company, the public and most of all by the captain.
SkyHigh
FO's get the shaft by unions and are generally considered as half-pilots.
FO's are given menial and mostly unnecessary tasks as busy work.
The public refers to the captain as "pilot". The FO might as well be invisible.
FO's have almost zero individual responsibilities. Their only charge is to serve as back up to the captain.
FO's have almost no voice and power in regards to the chief pilots office.
In summary the only real reason to even have an FO is to serve as a back up if the captain has a coronary, become a depository and whipping post for frustrated captains, be handy as a scapegoat should things go awry and lastly to receive some on the job training. FO's are mostly insignificant and treated as such by the company, the public and most of all by the captain.
SkyHigh
03-15-2007, 04:54 AM
#137
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fo
Skyhigh. Where do you come up with this stuff?
Senior F/O's at my company make 150K plus.
An F/O is a Capt in training, and is treated with as much respect as a Capt by all concerned.
The F/O is an essential cog in the safety wheel, he's there to make sure the Capt doesn't screw up.
The F/O does most of the cockpit setup in the 757. The Capt just checks his work.
A good Capt treats his F/O well, as he's a valuable resource that will keep him out of trouble.
I don't know where you come up with this stuff? Things must have been really bad at National.
I try to ignore most of your posts, but sometimes, for the sake of the truth, I just can't.
You do a great job of painting the worst case scenario. That's not a bad thing for the rest of us to see. I just wish you'd quit making stuff up....
Senior F/O's at my company make 150K plus.
An F/O is a Capt in training, and is treated with as much respect as a Capt by all concerned.
The F/O is an essential cog in the safety wheel, he's there to make sure the Capt doesn't screw up.
The F/O does most of the cockpit setup in the 757. The Capt just checks his work.
A good Capt treats his F/O well, as he's a valuable resource that will keep him out of trouble.
I don't know where you come up with this stuff? Things must have been really bad at National.
I try to ignore most of your posts, but sometimes, for the sake of the truth, I just can't.
You do a great job of painting the worst case scenario. That's not a bad thing for the rest of us to see. I just wish you'd quit making stuff up....
I am not making any of this up. Perhaps it has been too long since you were a FO at a commuter, regional or start up? Things might be better at UPS but I can assure you that for most everyone else it is as I depicted.
SkyHigh
03-15-2007, 05:12 AM
#138
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Captains Perspective
I've worked at a bunch of airlines, and never have I seen FOs treated that way. Certainly there are some (very, very few) individual captains that for one reason or another (none valid) treat FOs like dirt. But nowhere, even at bottomfeeders, would that sort of thing be seen as normal or acceptable.
Even the walk around is mostly for show since maintenance does a more thorough and educated preflight check. New pilots are shown a handful of grainy pictures and are given only a slight background of what to look for.
The FO is a supurfulous entity that has very little purpose other than to serve as back up and to build on the job experience. They are not respected by anyone and if missing would only be noticed when it is time to read the check list.
After flying single pilot IFR in a piston twin over the cascades with command over everything involved with the flight it is a striking contrast to being a check list reader.
SkyHigh
03-15-2007, 05:43 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
Posts: 1,349
03-15-2007, 06:38 AM
#140
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Knowledge
I am not exactly sure what your point is however I am not able to self delude myself into thinking anything less after having prior pilot jobs that had real responsibility associated with it.
I can however understand why a military or low time regional pilot who had no real flying experience to compare to would think they were accomplishing something of importance as an airline FO.
SkyHigh
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