Principles: LCC vs Legacy
05-02-2017, 11:20 AM
#41
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It looks like a no brainer to go to a legacy TODAY.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
9/11. Consolidation. It's a different landscape now. Not saying things can't happen but I'd say the legacies are relatively safe.
05-02-2017, 11:43 AM
#42
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Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 2,594
It looks like a no brainer to go to a legacy TODAY.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
No brainer today and probably for a career.
05-02-2017, 12:30 PM
#43
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,090
It looks like a no brainer to go to a legacy TODAY.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
In the late 90's hiring was going crazy. All the majors were hiring like gangbusters and everyone was going to be a Captain in three years. United made their largest ever annual profit ($1 bil). It was like manna from heaven.
Just a few short years later, those who went to jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. looked like geniuses.
That's all I'm saying. Look at the structural issues that the legacies have. Large oversized senior employee groups. Corporate culture where they spend spend spend whenever they get the money (save for Delta). Operating costs that are TWICE on a per seat mile basis than the ULCCs. There is a lot of downside protection going to a LCC and in an industry where seniority is #1 I think it's at least worth a passing thought on where you will be able to finish out your career without interruption.
Do you work for an LCC? Did you apply to any legacies?
05-02-2017, 02:02 PM
#44
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05-02-2017, 05:55 PM
#45
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Posts: 3,227
It's just something to think about. I see a lot of guys here counting their chickens before they hatch, counting down retirements, looking at upgrades, exactly the same thing that happened in 86-87 and 99-00 here. It's literally history repeating itself.
A ton of guys, except for those hired right at the beginning of the wave in their early 20's, would've been money ahead going to a LCC.
Another moral is once hired on, don't move on, stick it out. You never know what the future will bring.
I know me personally I would feel a lot more secure at a Spirit or jetBlue than I would at any legacy carrier. In bad times the LCCs will still make money where as the legacies will bleed.
05-02-2017, 07:53 PM
#46
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Posts: 2,594
I work at a legacy.
It's just something to think about. I see a lot of guys here counting their chickens before they hatch, counting down retirements, looking at upgrades, exactly the same thing that happened in 86-87 and 99-00 here. It's literally history repeating itself.
A ton of guys, except for those hired right at the beginning of the wave in their early 20's, would've been money ahead going to a LCC.
Another moral is once hired on, don't move on, stick it out. You never know what the future will bring.
I know me personally I would feel a lot more secure at a Spirit or jetBlue than I would at any legacy carrier. In bad times the LCCs will still make money where as the legacies will bleed.
It's just something to think about. I see a lot of guys here counting their chickens before they hatch, counting down retirements, looking at upgrades, exactly the same thing that happened in 86-87 and 99-00 here. It's literally history repeating itself.
A ton of guys, except for those hired right at the beginning of the wave in their early 20's, would've been money ahead going to a LCC.
Another moral is once hired on, don't move on, stick it out. You never know what the future will bring.
I know me personally I would feel a lot more secure at a Spirit or jetBlue than I would at any legacy carrier. In bad times the LCCs will still make money where as the legacies will bleed.
Are you advising guys with a choice of DAL/AA/UAL/, to take an LCC?
Thats just bad advice at the present time. Its fear based.
05-03-2017, 04:45 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Sep 2013
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Posts: 5,909
Youre at a legacy now and you'd feel better at Spirit? I hear what youre saying about the greener grass and the disasters of the past, but an LCC over any legacy with all those retirements?
Are you advising guys with a choice of DAL/AA/UAL/, to take an LCC?
Thats just bad advice at the present time. Its fear based.
Are you advising guys with a choice of DAL/AA/UAL/, to take an LCC?
Thats just bad advice at the present time. Its fear based.
I'd go with career earnings and variety of flying (ie: legacy.)
And as someone else pointed out, legacies have deeper pockets and a better survival rate than LCC's.
05-03-2017, 05:34 AM
#48
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 40,090
If you're really worried about the future...
1. Calculate how much money you'd make all the way to age 65 at an LCC.
2. Take the first upgrade possible at a legacy or FDX (months in some cases).
3. After you make the amount of money calculated in (1), retire. It will happen long before age 65, and hopefully you'll be done before the next big downturn.
1. Calculate how much money you'd make all the way to age 65 at an LCC.
2. Take the first upgrade possible at a legacy or FDX (months in some cases).
3. After you make the amount of money calculated in (1), retire. It will happen long before age 65, and hopefully you'll be done before the next big downturn.
05-03-2017, 08:18 AM
#50
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,227
Their brand is consistent - you know what you are getting. My wife and took the 321T in first from LAX-JFK then flew from JFK-XYZ where we live in the back of an Eagle 145. Two completely different products, not only in the seating but interior and type of environment you're in (Eagle gates tend to be low end and ghetto-ish).
Their management is solid - they make conservative smart decisions that play out over years. One fleet type offers extreme flexibility. How many do we have? I'd feel a lot better if we only had A319/20/21 A330/A350.
Their management is simply 100% focused on frugality and cost control. Ours is about spending as much as they can on fluff that no one cares about.
Plus, our work group couldn't care less if the company made money. I don't really blame them, but it's still disheartening.
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