Rahlifer

Pilot pay is not the only variable that makes it attractive for mainline to farm out the RJ flying. They're also saving by not paying for mainline FA's, mechanics, schedulers, dispatchers, hotels, etc. Pilot pay is just the most visible element that management likes to wave around in public. John Q Public reads about regional pilots making $60 per hour and does some mental math. $60x40hrs/week x 5 weeks = $12,000 a month. Obviously we know that's total crap, but that's the image that airline managers publicly portray.

sweetholyjesus

All very true, and only furthers my point that mainline farms out the flying because it is cheaper. But my focus was on ALPA, which isn't responsible for being concerned with what dispatchers and mechanics make. That's why I was focused more on the pilot pay/benefits comparisons between mainline and regional.

ALPA can see through the management charade, yet they are perfectly OK with you making about $80 LESS per hour flying the same CRJ900 that mainline has pay rates for, and flying the same passengers that mainline flies.. Both ALPA carriers, yet you make literally half the money!! As long as mainline wages are propped up by the indentured servants, they don't mind if you get whipsawed into submission along with your sister carriers, even while airlines are making record profits..... (looking at you PSA/EVY/PDT).

Do regional ALPA pilots really not have a problem with this type of representation? With this lack of unity? What has been the actual benefit of staying under ALPA all this time? Even TallFlyer said the only reason we are seeing (management-controlled) bonuses is because of the market (the 1500 hr rule). What has ALPA actually done in the last 20-30 years to earn the support of regional pilots?

Rahlifer

ALPA does have a huge conflict of interest. The interests of regional pilots and Mainline pilots are diametrically opposed. So it does seem odd that one association would be playing both sides of the fence even though the Mainline side is their obvious bread and butter. I'm not at an ALPA carrier, but we have our own issues as well. Our IBT pretty much lives on its knees while servicing our company's interests.

atpcliff

From an AA pilot thinking of leaving for DAL:

Definitely not a sign there is a glut of pilots...

TallFlyer

You're right you never said that. What you did do is imply that I was the embodiment of all that's wrong with the industry, and that I only care about me. Quit trying to deflect.

It is possible that further bargaining could've seen improvements to the entire pilot group, but it's also true that our current contractual language as written provides for further improvements as the pilot group gets larger, and everyone's seniority improves.

Please tell me how many regional pilot groups have taken pay cuts since December of 2013. I'll wait.

Once again you can't answer my question. If the evil, diabolical ALPA National and all their overpaid minions in Herndon could make more money with more Mainline pilots, then why ever sell off scope?

I suggest you digest the information presented here, here, and on page 12 of this document, and get back to me.

Additionally, manufacturers and other analysts (i.e. people with a lot more information than you) think that continued scope relief is unlikely.

It's called collective bargaining because it's one representative (a union) bargaining on behalf of an entire pilot group (singular). What you're describing doesn't actually exist, and will likely never exist for reasons I've already laid out. So why waste brain cells getting mad about something that won't ever happen?

I've already pointed out why your proposed solution is impractical.

Also, please tell me, since you're SO incensed at how much the low wages of regionals subsidize the wages of mainline, and that ALPA is happy to subsidize the representation of regional pilots to keep that going, just how much dues revenue does ALPA receive from AA pilots to subsidize the representation costs at the three wholly owned regionals?

It's really simple. Three questions:
1. Who owns the flying of a given company?
2. How many customers does a mainline carrier have?
3. How many customers does a regional carrier have?

Your quarrel is more with the reality embodied in the above three questions than with ALPA.

Actually if you go back and read what I wrote, I said no such thing. I said the rates "were only a small part of the present and future costs of operating those aircraft." See my next answer.

Again, I said no such thing. What I did say is that if the airlines get legislative relief on the ATP rule (meaning sub 1,000 hour FOs at regionals again) or get Age 67 passed (another two years of fewer retirements) then the pilot supply issue will not be as bad as it currently is, therefore those bonuses and pay rates will come back down. There's a reason they're only temporary.

----

Look, ultimately we both want the same thing: Current "regional" aircraft flown on mainline certificates at mainline rates. My own feeling is that we'll get there, absent legislative relief that the airlines would like to see, and that ALPA is fighting.

The difference between you and I is that I'm actually going to take the time to see things how they are, and not try and imagine some fantasy that will never exist while being driven by my hatred for things I don't fully understand.

If you'd like to continue this conversation, answer my three questions above and get back to me.

sweetholyjesus

If you'd like to continue the conversation, let's both agree to stop splitting up the posts. They are getting huge .

Did you or did you not gloat that you were being helped by the temporary FO bonuses? Something about your seniority improving, even though you get nothing tangible (money) yourself? That's a terrible position for a union supporter to take. It is also completely short-sighted. Even you say that once they get their pilots the bonuses could vanish in an instant. Then what are you left with? You need to start looking at the big picture. Contract pay increases would have needed to be negotiated away. Now, management can take the pay away without even sitting at the table! It's amazing that people in an industry where it takes so many years to develop a career could be so short-sighted.

Back to scope. I told you already that ALPA unions (and American) voted in scope because it lined their pockets. They failed to see the big picture too, and the damage that would be done to the industry and the career. And now ALPA collects dues from the same pilots whose career earnings they've essentially cut in half.

Never have I said that scope would be relaxed, and it has never been a part of anything I've said to you. So again, you put words in my mouth. Regardless, they are doing nothing to take back the scope they've already lost. So again, why should regional pilots be supporting them?

You seem to be confused about what collective bargaining is, not that I'm surprised. ALPA does not bargain collectively, otherwise every ALPA carrier would have the same contract, correct? Instead, each union (MEC) represents each of its own pilots (singular). ALPA is simply an association, and one with a history of disunity and selective representation. Why are you so opposed to multiple regional unions bargaining together?

The difference between you and I is that I can see a potential problem before it happens. I'm also not so afraid of any kind of change that I would write off the suggestion to find new, more effective representation as a "fantasy".

Oh yeah, I'll invite you once again to make your own argument. I still don't see how your 3 favorite questions should change the way that ALPA represents its pilots.

TallFlyer

If you don't know the answer you can just say that.

sweetholyjesus

Weak response. If you don't actually want to make a point, you can just say so.. I still don't know what you're getting at... Are you trying to say that ALPA should represent its carriers differently for some reason?

How many Delta passengers can fit on a Delta CRJ 900? Got a number? Now..
How many Delta passengers can fit on an Endeavor CRJ 900??

Why is ALPA ok with Endeavor CRJ 900 pilots making half as much money as a Delta CRJ 900 pilot? Why are you ok with ALPA being ok with this?

TallFlyer

I'm not the one deflecting.

sweetholyjesus

Yeah, your one sentence responses really show you're not deflecting

I'm asking you directly. What is the point you're trying to make by asking those 3 questions? Make your point now or bury it. Don't be a hypocrite and start deflecting...