SKW CEO warns pilot shortage could lead...
03-10-2017, 09:27 AM
#161
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 92
When I was mortgage shopping, I gave a W2. You know what that W2 had on it? My income for the last year. And yes, the retention bonus was counted. They cared what I earned. They didn't ask for a copy of our contract to see what "minimum guarantee" was. Pay stubs showed consistent income at XXX amount, with some month-to-month variation based on hours worked; they were happy with that.
For example, a VA loan (and FHA loans use the same guidelines in this respect): "Bonus income may also be used if the bonus income is issued on a regular basis and is consistent."
Same goes for "consistent" overtime.
And going above guarantee? No one batted an eye. Watch a mortgage lender give you a blank stare when you mention the term "minimum guarantee." An 80-hour line month was absolutely included as part of my salary -- it didn't even count as "overtime" - just "salary." Just like other hourly jobs, they take an average if there's a long enough history to look at.
There's a point of reasonableness. If a guy makes 55k, and is reasonably expected to continue making that amount, some/most lenders will reasonably rely on that salary after some evidence. Maybe your lender only permitted minimum guarantee. At some point, they could say to a captain "well you could get downgraded if your fleet shrinks, we're only accepting FO salary." Or "you could lose your medical tomorrow -- no house for you."
03-10-2017, 09:37 AM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 857
There's a point of reasonableness. If a guy makes 55k, and is reasonably expected to continue making that amount, some/most lenders will reasonably rely on that salary after some evidence. Maybe your lender only permitted minimum guarantee. At some point, they could say to a captain "well you could get downgraded if your fleet shrinks, we're only accepting FO salary." Or "you could lose your medical tomorrow -- no house for you."
03-10-2017, 09:39 AM
#163
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 692
The apprentice part is done while flight instructing or "flying checks". Once someone is flying passengers in an airline environment with an ATP license, the apprenticeship is over and the pilot needs to be paid as such. Make the reward of being a pilot worth it and people will figure out a way to become one. Any attempts to procure pilots otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to usurp the basic economic model that capitalism is based on.
03-10-2017, 09:52 AM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 692
Something that has not been mentioned with respect to this loan insanity business. If you take regular bank loans for flight training if you can get them they are fully bankruptable if you cannot pay them. However what is so dangerous about federal student loans is that they cannot be disposed of in bankruptcy. So they will be with you your entire life until paid.
03-10-2017, 09:57 AM
#165
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 687
Why wouldn't I include ongoing retention bonuses and per diem in my salary? Yes, some OT is picked up (every couple of months), and throughout the year it is usually available at some point. I don't claim ALL FOs clear 60k. But many do, or can. You can define your salary how you'd like. We can debate non-taxed per diem all day, but let's be real - it's take home pay (not even taxed!). Some choose to spend it going out to eat on the road, I choose to keep most of it. To each their own. Don't worry, if my "not guaranteed" retention bonuses stop coming in, I'll stop including them in my salary. For now, the money comes into my bank account -- feels an awful lot like salary.
College -- four years of it -- costs as much as ATP flight school. Most nurses nowadays go to four years (sure, a few still just do two). I'm feeling that debt burn as much as the next guy. But I knew the payoff at the end, and waited till wages rose to where they are (and hopefully higher soon).
Nursing life-responsibility versus pilot life-responsibility: Number of nurses sued compared to airline pilots, not even in the remote ballpark (you mentioned liability). Nurses deal with a few dying folks. We deal with dozens/hundreds of folks heading to Tampa. Kinda apples and oranges. A nurse making 100k? Not all that common, but it obviously happens. A pilot making 100k relatively early in his/her career? Happens all the time. That's a part of why I'm in this profession, and not a nurse!
Lastly, don't get bent out of shape about the bus driver analogy. I feel that my caveat -- that they require little technical skill -- made clear that I was using it for the limited purpose of explaining that "responsible for X lives" isn't always the greatest way of determining compensation. A bus driver (rightly) only earns 20k. We earn well above that.
College -- four years of it -- costs as much as ATP flight school. Most nurses nowadays go to four years (sure, a few still just do two). I'm feeling that debt burn as much as the next guy. But I knew the payoff at the end, and waited till wages rose to where they are (and hopefully higher soon).
Nursing life-responsibility versus pilot life-responsibility: Number of nurses sued compared to airline pilots, not even in the remote ballpark (you mentioned liability). Nurses deal with a few dying folks. We deal with dozens/hundreds of folks heading to Tampa. Kinda apples and oranges. A nurse making 100k? Not all that common, but it obviously happens. A pilot making 100k relatively early in his/her career? Happens all the time. That's a part of why I'm in this profession, and not a nurse!
Lastly, don't get bent out of shape about the bus driver analogy. I feel that my caveat -- that they require little technical skill -- made clear that I was using it for the limited purpose of explaining that "responsible for X lives" isn't always the greatest way of determining compensation. A bus driver (rightly) only earns 20k. We earn well above that.
03-10-2017, 09:57 AM
#166
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 15
Exactly. Being a regional pilot is the EXACT same job as a mainline pilot. The training, checkride, recurrent and line check standards are all the same per FAA. When you take a E175 from ORD-MSY it is no different of a job than doing it in an A320 other than having less passengers. This C-scale industry is completely ridiculous and frankly most pilots are suckers for participating in it. The payscale for an E175 at a regional should be exactly what it would be if mainline were operating it.
03-10-2017, 09:59 AM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 180
I'm intimately aware of what a commissioned officer makes. 
My point wasn't that they are paid too much. It's that when someone says "Look at all this responsibility! We deserve $5 bajillion a year," I like to put it into perspective. Far more responsibility and they make less than $100,000 total compensation (including inferred and tax free benefits) for at least the first 5-6 years.
My point wasn't that they are paid too much. It's that when someone says "Look at all this responsibility! We deserve $5 bajillion a year," I like to put it into perspective. Far more responsibility and they make less than $100,000 total compensation (including inferred and tax free benefits) for at least the first 5-6 years.
With the airlines, you have to pay for that yourself. They give you 2 months worth of training (in IOE you're still providing a service to them) and you have to acquire the first 1500 hours in some manner on your own. And to have any real chance with a major, you also have to get that 4 year degree on your own dime.
Additionally, in the service, that pay keeps going up. Right now in the regionals, pay is, I think, fair in some places at $60k for the first year. The problem is that it goes into the toilet after that. Plus, it will not stay there if they take away the 1500 rule. As soon as pilots are easy to get again, pay drops like a hot rock.
03-10-2017, 10:10 AM
#168
On Reserve
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 15
Haha, ya 271c who's side are you on? We have a real opportunity to make some real gains and we need to make sure that we don't let the airlines change the game in their favor again. In my opinion relaxing the 1500 rule or moving the retirement age is bad for not just industry salary and ultimately QOL but safety as well.
03-10-2017, 10:21 AM
#169
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 53
Like others have said - regionals do everything mainline does, in some instances fly almost identical equipment (175s). Yet we make a fraction of our counterparts. That is the definition of underpaid.
03-10-2017, 10:59 AM
#170
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
FO here. I make 60k+, without much effort (i.e. I don't pick up very much open time, if any). I'm not underpaid. If I'm a Captain making 80k, I also will not be underpaid. The market seems to agree.
The mechanic fixing our engines is responsible for the lives on the plane. A lot of them don't make 100k... A nurse is responsible for many lives each shift. And let's be real, many new-ish nurses are in the 50k-60k range -- I earn more than my nurse friends/spouse.
A bus driver crashes, kills 35 kids. Makes maybe 20k. Lot of lives in his hands there... (yes, little technical skill/knowledge required thus the 20k salary, but the "lives in the hands" argument pertains)
Airline pilots DO require technical knowledge, I agree. But said knowledge can be obtained in a year; no college required. That's a fact. Sure, nowadays we need to flight instruct, etc. for an extra year or two, but the base knowledge acquisition can take place in a 180 day + 90 day program at ATP flight school.
I wish I made more, believe me. And I will fight for any compensation and QOL improvements for the WHOLE group when the chances come up in a union vote. But I also am aware that I make more than the average US resident by a large amount. I have no odd illusions about demanding minimum 100k compensation my first year as a Captain of a regional jet. Besides, with a bit of OT pick up I might get pretty close anyway...
The mechanic fixing our engines is responsible for the lives on the plane. A lot of them don't make 100k... A nurse is responsible for many lives each shift. And let's be real, many new-ish nurses are in the 50k-60k range -- I earn more than my nurse friends/spouse.
A bus driver crashes, kills 35 kids. Makes maybe 20k. Lot of lives in his hands there... (yes, little technical skill/knowledge required thus the 20k salary, but the "lives in the hands" argument pertains)
Airline pilots DO require technical knowledge, I agree. But said knowledge can be obtained in a year; no college required. That's a fact. Sure, nowadays we need to flight instruct, etc. for an extra year or two, but the base knowledge acquisition can take place in a 180 day + 90 day program at ATP flight school.
I wish I made more, believe me. And I will fight for any compensation and QOL improvements for the WHOLE group when the chances come up in a union vote. But I also am aware that I make more than the average US resident by a large amount. I have no odd illusions about demanding minimum 100k compensation my first year as a Captain of a regional jet. Besides, with a bit of OT pick up I might get pretty close anyway...
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
