SKW CEO warns pilot shortage could lead...
03-10-2017, 08:16 AM
#151
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 92
From your post history, looks like you're at Envoy. Their highest FO rate is $43/hr. Your guarantee is only 72 hrs for lineholders. So, your guaranteed salary is only $37,000.
Now if you add your bonuses (which run out after year 3), you will make $59000 year 1, $49000 year 2, and $49000 year 3. After year 3 you are back down to $37,000 unless you are fortunate enough to upgrade (and how close was American to closing Envoy when they voted no?).
If you aren't finished paying off that loan by then, things could start getting tight, I imagine. Most people can't pay a $70,000 loan in 3 years....Do you understand now why I'm saying that the bonuses aren't guaranteed/salary? And that's even with the assumption that the company will actually pay it.
Now if you add your bonuses (which run out after year 3), you will make $59000 year 1, $49000 year 2, and $49000 year 3. After year 3 you are back down to $37,000 unless you are fortunate enough to upgrade (and how close was American to closing Envoy when they voted no?).
If you aren't finished paying off that loan by then, things could start getting tight, I imagine. Most people can't pay a $70,000 loan in 3 years....Do you understand now why I'm saying that the bonuses aren't guaranteed/salary? And that's even with the assumption that the company will actually pay it.
But I think your approx numbers prove my point -- clearing 60k as an FO, disregarding any BS "sign on" bonuses -- is absolutely possible -- and I do it myself. You can 1) bid for credit lines WELL above 72 hours; 2) bid 72 hours with more days off and pick up OT when it goes to critical coverage; 3) save your per diem as a personal choice to boost your take home pay a bit. I really don't feel like I work myself to death, at all, to get to that number either. It was my target amount going into this game, and without much effort I make that amount happen.
That said, I don't disagree -- if Envoy, or anyone else, starts yanking continued-payout "bonuses," the math doesn't work as well for getting to 60k. That'll be a discussion to have in a few years, assuming they aren't negotiated into pay raises by then...
03-10-2017, 08:21 AM
#152
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 92
Sorry for the reposts, but this is too important to get buried in pages of chatter.
We have to beat them at their own game. Crying on the forum only goes so far. Time to take action. Main feedback email: [email protected] and the general email is [email protected]
We have to beat them at their own game. Crying on the forum only goes so far. Time to take action. Main feedback email: [email protected] and the general email is [email protected]
03-10-2017, 08:21 AM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 443
I absolutely would prefer the retention bonuses get rolled in to pay raises. And if airlines start taking away retention bonuses (Envoy, Endeavor, etc.) prior to upgrades, yep -- that'll be a problem. I'm no fortune teller, but if they do pull them away, I think management would see FOs start to trickle out. Only time will tell.
But I think your approx numbers prove my point -- clearing 60k as an FO, disregarding any BS "sign on" bonuses -- is absolutely possible -- and I do it myself. You can 1) bid for credit lines WELL above 72 hours; 2) bid 72 hours with more days off and pick up OT when it goes to critical coverage; 3) save your per diem as a personal choice to boost your take home pay a bit. I really don't feel like I work myself to death, at all, to get to that number either. It was my target amount going into this game, and without much effort I make that amount happen.
That said, I don't disagree -- if Envoy, or anyone else, starts yanking continued-payout "bonuses," the math doesn't work as well for getting to 60k. That'll be a discussion to have in a few years, assuming they aren't negotiated into pay raises by then...
But I think your approx numbers prove my point -- clearing 60k as an FO, disregarding any BS "sign on" bonuses -- is absolutely possible -- and I do it myself. You can 1) bid for credit lines WELL above 72 hours; 2) bid 72 hours with more days off and pick up OT when it goes to critical coverage; 3) save your per diem as a personal choice to boost your take home pay a bit. I really don't feel like I work myself to death, at all, to get to that number either. It was my target amount going into this game, and without much effort I make that amount happen.
That said, I don't disagree -- if Envoy, or anyone else, starts yanking continued-payout "bonuses," the math doesn't work as well for getting to 60k. That'll be a discussion to have in a few years, assuming they aren't negotiated into pay raises by then...
03-10-2017, 08:23 AM
#154
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 92
The airline could disappear.
9/11 could happen again.
I could lose my medical (and have before!).
I'm ready for any and all possibilities, to include an end to the bonus.
03-10-2017, 08:27 AM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 857
I absolutely would prefer the retention bonuses get rolled in to pay raises. And if airlines start taking away retention bonuses (Envoy, Endeavor, etc.) prior to upgrades, yep -- that'll be a problem. I'm no fortune teller, but if they do pull them away, I think management would see FOs start to trickle out. Only time will tell.
But I think your approx numbers prove my point -- clearing 60k as an FO, disregarding any BS "sign on" bonuses -- is absolutely possible -- and I do it myself. You can 1) bid for credit lines WELL above 72 hours; 2) bid 72 hours with more days off and pick up OT when it goes to critical coverage; 3) save your per diem as a personal choice to boost your take home pay a bit. I really don't feel like I work myself to death, at all, to get to that number either. It was my target amount going into this game, and without much effort I make that amount happen.
That said, I don't disagree -- if Envoy, or anyone else, starts yanking continued-payout "bonuses," the math doesn't work as well for getting to 60k. That'll be a discussion to have in a few years, assuming they aren't negotiated into pay raises by then...
But I think your approx numbers prove my point -- clearing 60k as an FO, disregarding any BS "sign on" bonuses -- is absolutely possible -- and I do it myself. You can 1) bid for credit lines WELL above 72 hours; 2) bid 72 hours with more days off and pick up OT when it goes to critical coverage; 3) save your per diem as a personal choice to boost your take home pay a bit. I really don't feel like I work myself to death, at all, to get to that number either. It was my target amount going into this game, and without much effort I make that amount happen.
That said, I don't disagree -- if Envoy, or anyone else, starts yanking continued-payout "bonuses," the math doesn't work as well for getting to 60k. That'll be a discussion to have in a few years, assuming they aren't negotiated into pay raises by then...
(I did have to go back and lower the numbers a bit since you guys don't actually make $43/hr first year, you make closer to $38/hr.)
Again, per diem is not compensation, whether you choose to "save it" or not. And you shouldn't have to work overtime to make a salary that's appropriate for the work you do. Also, you are never guaranteed to be able to credit more than min guarantee each month. Ask the AWAC captains about that...
03-10-2017, 08:40 AM
#156
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 92
This post doesn't make any sense. I actually included the bonuses into those calculations, so without them the pay is all the way down to $33000 year 1, and $37000 thereafter. (I did, however, have to go back and lower the numbers a bit since you guys don't actually make $43/hr first year, you make closer to $38/hr.)
Again, per diem is not compensation, whether you choose to "save it" or not. And you shouldn't have to work overtime to make a salary that's appropriate for the work you do. Also, you are never guaranteed to be able to credit more than min guarantee each month. Ask the AWAC captains about that...
Again, per diem is not compensation, whether you choose to "save it" or not. And you shouldn't have to work overtime to make a salary that's appropriate for the work you do. Also, you are never guaranteed to be able to credit more than min guarantee each month. Ask the AWAC captains about that...
That said -- we can disregard per diem for the sake of argument. In that case, clearing 55k as an FO is extremely easy. And in that case, your meals on the road are covered by per diem :-)
And again, there are MANY contractual improvements needed. I promise -- I'm a normal guy who wants a better life for all of us. And yes, more money too...
03-10-2017, 08:45 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 857
when did I say an FO is guaranteed 60k? I said it is possible. And that I attain that number, along with several of my friends. Line values might go back to minimum. OT might disappear -- and yes, it'd be great if I didn't have to pick up any OT. But I do it when I want to, here and there, to make sure I clear the 60k hurdle.
I think the mistake you are making is calling these variables "salary". A bonus is not part of your salary, by definition. Per-diem is definitely not part of your "salary", but you keep calling it that. Nothing besides your SALARY is guaranteed to fill your wallet.
03-10-2017, 08:54 AM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 591
Ever buy a house before? They call your employer to verify your income. You know what number they are going to give?
(hourly rate) x (monthly guarantee) x 12
That is your annual salary. Bonuses and perdiem and overtime are not included. End of story.
(hourly rate) x (monthly guarantee) x 12
That is your annual salary. Bonuses and perdiem and overtime are not included. End of story.
03-10-2017, 09:13 AM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 175
Per-diem is given to us because food and other services aren't as cheap on the road. It's that simple, it's a reimbursement for people in the travel industry that don't have the luxury to have a car every day to shop at the most competitive grocery store. We're stuck at airports and hotels. You are limited to what you can buy.
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03-10-2017, 09:16 AM
#160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 857
Per-diem is given to us because food and other services aren't as cheap on the road. It's that simple, it's a reimbursement for people in the travel industry that don't have the luxury to have a car every day to shop at the most competitive grocery store. We're stuck at airports and hotels. You are limited to what you can buy.
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