FlameNSky

The apprentice part is done while flight instructing or "flying checks". Once someone is flying passengers in an airline environment with an ATP license, the apprenticeship is over and the pilot needs to be paid as such. Make the reward of being a pilot worth it and people will figure out a way to become one. Any attempts to procure pilots otherwise is nothing more than an attempt to usurp the basic economic model that capitalism is based on.

Whiplash6

Did I read this right? He wants the government to bail them out with Federal loans to student pilots? Unbelievable.

6

StlLifer

Why in the world do you feel that is your problem or our problem. A doctor doesn't not demand what the market price is because the number of patients might drop, its not his problem. Does the fueler charge less so passengers won't have to pay more? Does the United pilot take less so that the ticket price won't rise? I certainly can't get my bills lowered because it might result in ticket prices going up. If a route is not profitable paying market rates the should end the route of figure out other ways to be more efficient. F-U Pay Me.

CBreezy

Fighter and bomber pilots make less than 100k a year and they have way more responsibility and have much higher technical knowledge.

271c

FO here. I make 60k+, without much effort (i.e. I don't pick up very much open time, if any). I'm not underpaid. If I'm a Captain making 80k, I also will not be underpaid. The market seems to agree.

The mechanic fixing our engines is responsible for the lives on the plane. A lot of them don't make 100k... A nurse is responsible for many lives each shift. And let's be real, many new-ish nurses are in the 50k-60k range -- I earn more than my nurse friends/spouse.

A bus driver crashes, kills 35 kids. Makes maybe 20k. Lot of lives in his hands there... (yes, little technical skill/knowledge required thus the 20k salary, but the "lives in the hands" argument pertains)

Airline pilots DO require technical knowledge, I agree. But said knowledge can be obtained in a year; no college required. That's a fact. Sure, nowadays we need to flight instruct, etc. for an extra year or two, but the base knowledge acquisition can take place in a 180 day + 90 day program at ATP flight school.

I wish I made more, believe me. And I will fight for any compensation and QOL improvements for the WHOLE group when the chances come up in a union vote. But I also am aware that I make more than the average US resident by a large amount. I have no odd illusions about demanding minimum 100k compensation my first year as a Captain of a regional jet. Besides, with a bit of OT pick up I might get pretty close anyway...

CBreezy

Average US compensation is $51,000 per year. Making $60+ per year isn't a large amount especially with how much time you spend away from home.

271c

From the Social Security Administration:

2015
Average US Net Compensation (here defined as taxable income, what we think of as gross salary) -- $46,119

Median US Net Compensation -- $29,930


And per payscale.com, one source of many I could use, "median salary is a better measure of typical salary."

So, I feel that $60k is "a large amount" more than the average, or median -- take your pick, US salary.



As for the time away from home, it's kind of what I signed up for. I don't expect to be paid for sitting in a hotel in Des Moines for 18 hours. I expect to be paid for when I work. Now..... should that be starting from when I board the plane? Yeah, probably... maybe in the next contract...

Finally, even if we took your 51k number as the average US salary, that is for all workers, over their whole careers. I am at the beginning of mine, as a regional FO. My career average or median salary is likely to wildly dwarf the US average salary.

sweetholyjesus

You're comparing a bus driver to an airline pilot? Didn't know dealers were selling their school buses for $40 million each...

Nursing is a fine profession, and they are responsible for maybe a handful of people each day. We are responsible for hundreds. Can you say "liability"?

Yes commercial pilot technical knowledge can be learned relatively quickly, but how much does it cost??? I would argue it costs even more at a cookie cutter like ATP with their jacked-up prices.

You make $60k+? Try saying that again without using overtime and bonuses to inflate your yearly salary. You shouldn't have to spend even more time away from home to make a decent salary. Plus you aren't always able to pick up overtime (ask how I know) and bonuses aren't guaranteed. What is your longevity and hourly rate? (Hourly Rate x 75 x 12 = Salary)

Taco280AI

Commissioned officer pay is pretty good. A 3 years in service O2 in their first unit gets $4586 plus $156 for 2 years of aviation pay. That is what they are taxed on, $4742 a month. If they're married and stationed in Colorado Springs, for example, they get $1587 in housing and another $254 for food, both not taxed.

Total compensation for a fairly new LT in their first unit is $6583 a month with only $4742 being taxed. Civilian equivalent being roughly $7k a month for a fairly new LT? And 30 days paid vacation a year. And zero medical/dental costs. They get paid pretty well. Plus they're getting paid to learn to fly in their first two years.

Now us Warrants, we don't get paid as well, but we're also not dealing with death by PowerPoint.

271c

Why wouldn't I include ongoing retention bonuses and per diem in my salary? Yes, some OT is picked up (every couple of months), and throughout the year it is usually available at some point. I don't claim ALL FOs clear 60k. But many do, or can. You can define your salary how you'd like. We can debate non-taxed per diem all day, but let's be real - it's take home pay (not even taxed!). Some choose to spend it going out to eat on the road, I choose to keep most of it. To each their own. Don't worry, if my "not guaranteed" retention bonuses stop coming in, I'll stop including them in my salary. For now, the money comes into my bank account -- feels an awful lot like salary.

College -- four years of it -- costs as much as ATP flight school. Most nurses nowadays go to four years (sure, a few still just do two). I'm feeling that debt burn as much as the next guy. But I knew the payoff at the end, and waited till wages rose to where they are (and hopefully higher soon).

Nursing life-responsibility versus pilot life-responsibility: Number of nurses sued compared to airline pilots, not even in the remote ballpark (you mentioned liability). Nurses deal with a few dying folks. We deal with dozens/hundreds of folks heading to Tampa. Kinda apples and oranges. A nurse making 100k? Not all that common, but it obviously happens. A pilot making 100k relatively early in his/her career? Happens all the time. That's a part of why I'm in this profession, and not a nurse!

Lastly, don't get bent out of shape about the bus driver analogy. I feel that my caveat -- that they require little technical skill -- made clear that I was using it for the limited purpose of explaining that "responsible for X lives" isn't always the greatest way of determining compensation. A bus driver (rightly) only earns 20k. We earn well above that.