PSA "Latest & Greatest"
05-04-2017, 09:49 AM
#481
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
A check ride is not a learning environment. Instructors can teach during a re-train but otherwise the student is there to perform at that point. The learning has already been done.
It's been mentioned(more than once, including from instructors) that students do not fail rides based on captain duties, flows, or decision making yet you still come here and spout your nonsense. your buddy did not fail his ride due to captain flows. Pilots are allowed 2 failure items on an initial PC. If he got a fail on flows(he didn't) what else did he fail?
Everyone with even a sliver of experience in aviation knows that when you talk to someone who failed a ride it's never their fault. They somehow got screwed by the system.
Lastly, I call BS on the fact that "an upgrading captain" fills a seat during an FO check ride, gimme a break.
It's been mentioned(more than once, including from instructors) that students do not fail rides based on captain duties, flows, or decision making yet you still come here and spout your nonsense. your buddy did not fail his ride due to captain flows. Pilots are allowed 2 failure items on an initial PC. If he got a fail on flows(he didn't) what else did he fail?
Everyone with even a sliver of experience in aviation knows that when you talk to someone who failed a ride it's never their fault. They somehow got screwed by the system.
Lastly, I call BS on the fact that "an upgrading captain" fills a seat during an FO check ride, gimme a break.
And I'm very aware that a checkride is not a learning environment. You are testing what was learned. A FO should be learning PM and PF duties from the right seat. Evaluating them from the left is negative learning. There is a reason green-on-green exists. Even if the person in the left seat isn't supposed to prompt, having a qualified Captain as a seat fill will truly test what you do and don't know.
05-04-2017, 10:00 AM
#482
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 470
Oh look, a wiener waving contest on the regional forums. Who woulda thunk it.......
Anyway, I guess we're all doing it wrong at PSA. Better shut the airline down now because some yahoo on APC doesn't know when to just leave it alone.
Anyway, I guess we're all doing it wrong at PSA. Better shut the airline down now because some yahoo on APC doesn't know when to just leave it alone.
05-04-2017, 10:13 AM
#483
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
Whoa, inferiority complex much? I'm just saying I think there is a better way of doing this based on my experiences not that PSA is a garbage airline.
05-04-2017, 10:30 AM
#484
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,340
Had a seat fill one time because my partner didn't get the sign off.
Maybe be done differently elsewhere but this seems to be the norm.
05-04-2017, 10:59 AM
#485
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 470
But to what seems to be your main point, that having to deal with onerous tasks of CA flows and PM from the left seat is "negative learning," since we're all going to upgrade anyway, why bother learning FO crap at all? Or heck, all those habits that we learned in a piston single that are counterproductive in a jet, I guess we should just start primary training in CRJs. Or wait, those are going away so we should just go straight to Airbus. Oh wait, what if I fly a Boeing later on? All this "negative learning" will surely make that too difficult for poor old me. Hell, how do those dual seat qualified LCAs do it? Way too difficult.....
What if what is actually happening is transference, the application of skills and perspective learned in the left seat during training to one's everyday experience in the right seat? What if the side benefit is that if one literally can't handle the left seat in FO training and learning that extra bit of knowledge, that we weed them out early, because someone who can't be that mentally agile is probably going to be a detriment in the flight deck.
Lastly, what if it's not about what you think?
05-04-2017, 11:31 AM
#486
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,606
Well, I'm not the one repeatedly posting on some other regional's subforum that they're doing it wrong.
But to what seems to be your main point, that having to deal with onerous tasks of CA flows and PM from the left seat is "negative learning," since we're all going to upgrade anyway, why bother learning FO crap at all? Or heck, all those habits that we learned in a piston single that are counterproductive in a jet, I guess we should just start primary training in CRJs. Or wait, those are going away so we should just go straight to Airbus. Oh wait, what if I fly a Boeing later on? All this "negative learning" will surely make that too difficult for poor old me. Hell, how do those dual seat qualified LCAs do it? Way too difficult.....
What if what is actually happening is transference, the application of skills and perspective learned in the left seat during training to one's everyday experience in the right seat? What if the side benefit is that if one literally can't handle the left seat in FO training and learning that extra bit of knowledge, that we weed them out early, because someone who can't be that mentally agile is probably going to be a detriment in the flight deck.
Lastly, what if it's not about what you think?
But to what seems to be your main point, that having to deal with onerous tasks of CA flows and PM from the left seat is "negative learning," since we're all going to upgrade anyway, why bother learning FO crap at all? Or heck, all those habits that we learned in a piston single that are counterproductive in a jet, I guess we should just start primary training in CRJs. Or wait, those are going away so we should just go straight to Airbus. Oh wait, what if I fly a Boeing later on? All this "negative learning" will surely make that too difficult for poor old me. Hell, how do those dual seat qualified LCAs do it? Way too difficult.....
What if what is actually happening is transference, the application of skills and perspective learned in the left seat during training to one's everyday experience in the right seat? What if the side benefit is that if one literally can't handle the left seat in FO training and learning that extra bit of knowledge, that we weed them out early, because someone who can't be that mentally agile is probably going to be a detriment in the flight deck.
Lastly, what if it's not about what you think?
05-04-2017, 11:55 AM
#487
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 323
He's just a former coworker and it happened awhile ago. Just catching up in the airport when he told me the story.
I am not talking about how he was wronged, just that I think it's negative learning to put a FO and FO together during a jeopardy event like that. You quote lack of cockpit familiarity and this just goes back to negative learning. When I went to the left seat, it took 2 whole sims from the left seat to quit being disoriented even though I'd been flying the airplane for years. When you switch seats, everything is in a different place than your brain remembers it. In fact, the cockpit, to your brain, is almost upside down. Read any book about cognitive processes and it'll tell you the same thing.
At TSA, the PM functions are graded on Day 2 during the LOE.
I am not talking about how he was wronged, just that I think it's negative learning to put a FO and FO together during a jeopardy event like that. You quote lack of cockpit familiarity and this just goes back to negative learning. When I went to the left seat, it took 2 whole sims from the left seat to quit being disoriented even though I'd been flying the airplane for years. When you switch seats, everything is in a different place than your brain remembers it. In fact, the cockpit, to your brain, is almost upside down. Read any book about cognitive processes and it'll tell you the same thing.
At TSA, the PM functions are graded on Day 2 during the LOE.
Like I said, there are occasions when we have qualified captains in the left seat during training. And now that I think about it, when those students are PM for an entire flight during their qualification LOFT they usually struggle since they have very little exposure to monitoring duties.
I personally feel that being in both seats during training makes our students better. It gives them an overall perspective that they wouldn't otherwise get with always having a seat fill. When they struggle, we make reasonable accommodations. Besides, you need to make a few mistakes to learn anyways.
Maybe the companies you work(ed) for had issues in the past with FO FO pairings and they decided to go with seat fills to get their numbers up. At the 3 airlines I've been a part of we never got a seat fill unless our partner for sick. You made it through as a crew.
05-04-2017, 12:05 PM
#488
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 470
Oh, you hire dual seat LCA off the street with zero jet time? So your training program teaches proficiency from the left and right seat? They are then dual qualified? Heck, using your logic, why even give training Sims to a captain upgrade? One PC from the left seat and off to fly the line because they got all the training they needed as a new FO. Is it because, now hold on with me here, they aren't qualified or trained in the left seat?
In any event, amazingly enough people get through training all the time. We've nearly tripled in size since 2014, so apparently someone is doing something right in DAY, certain keyboard warriors notwithstanding.
05-04-2017, 05:21 PM
#489
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: Left
Posts: 1,809
Two different things. Either an instructor fills the seat or a line-qualified Captain. At TSA, this was required. You could not have an FO fill the seat. The upgrading Captain and new FO as a pairing during training happens ALL the time.
And I'm very aware that a checkride is not a learning environment. You are testing what was learned. A FO should be learning PM and PF duties from the right seat. Evaluating them from the left is negative learning. There is a reason green-on-green exists. Even if the person in the left seat isn't supposed to prompt, having a qualified Captain as a seat fill will truly test what you do and don't know.
And I'm very aware that a checkride is not a learning environment. You are testing what was learned. A FO should be learning PM and PF duties from the right seat. Evaluating them from the left is negative learning. There is a reason green-on-green exists. Even if the person in the left seat isn't supposed to prompt, having a qualified Captain as a seat fill will truly test what you do and don't know.
You are making no points other than "it's a negative learning environment" and you keep saying it over and over again. How is typing on a keypad or making a radio call to ops any different from the left than from the right. For that matter how would you even evaluate pm duties on a checkride without sitting in the left seat?
Go away.
05-04-2017, 06:07 PM
#490
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 221
If you have a problem with FO fillers in the left seat... the real question is do you have the nards to ask in your interview at your dream airline how they conduct training. Got news for you, many of the majors conduct training and check rides with FOs in the left seat. Good luck.
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